Author Topic: Election results. Dont be Gay in Texas or a gun owner in SF  (Read 2188 times)

Offline Eden

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Election results. Dont be Gay in Texas or a gun owner in SF
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2005, 08:49:47 PM »
The NJ Assault GUn Ban is a cosmetic law which means it outlaws guns that have certain physical charactiersitics (proof that anti-gun folks have no real clue of what guns even are).  An assault gun (per the ban) is a semi-automatice gun that has any two of the three following characteristics

1) Bayonet Lug
2) Magazine Capacity (original design) more than 10 rounds
3) Pistol Grip.

By this definition an M-1 Carbine is illegal in that it has a bayonet lug and a 15 round magazine

Ironically an M-1 Garand is not (bayonet lug but only 8 rounds)

Even more ironcally an MAS-49 or an SKS  rifle is also not banned (magazines of 10 rounds - original configuration)

Silly isn't it.

Bolt action rifles are (for the most part) ok.

Many who owned an M-1 carbine had to dump it cheaply (to PA Residents - which was the greatest insult) or be criminals.

Offline lasersailor184

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Election results. Dont be Gay in Texas or a gun owner in SF
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2005, 09:43:38 PM »
Well, if I had the money I'd buy an M1 Carbine from you guys for true value (I'm in PA).  


But the problem is I don't have the money...
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Offline Silat

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Election results. Dont be Gay in Texas or a gun owner in SF
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2005, 10:37:52 PM »
Good on you Washington State... Yea!!!!

Seagoon way to set the hook :)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2005, 10:47:54 PM by Silat »
+Silat
"The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them." — Maya Angelou
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"All that serves labor serves the nation. All that harms labor is treason."

Offline Silat

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Election results. Dont be Gay in Texas or a gun owner in SF
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2005, 10:38:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
From what breif reports I saw on the Texas measure the vote wasnt anywhere near close.
Think I saw it was something like 75% voted in favor of the ammendment

Thats a pretty resounding defeat of Gay marriage by the people of Texas.
With those kind of numbers (provided that number is anywhere near accurate)  and would have to include a large number of liberals.
Its hard to say political. Its what the people of that state want.



Liberals ?? In Texas?:)
+Silat
"The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them." — Maya Angelou
"Conservatism offers no redress for the present, and makes no preparation for the future." B. Disraeli
"All that serves labor serves the nation. All that harms labor is treason."

Offline DREDIOCK

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Election results. Dont be Gay in Texas or a gun owner in SF
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2005, 11:17:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Silat
Liberals ?? In Texas?:)


im sure there must be some Nixon leftovers there in Texas.

Nixon by todays republican standards was liberal.:)
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
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What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline Denny_Crane!

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Election results. Dont be Gay in Texas or a gun owner in SF
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2005, 12:40:46 AM »
You know what's wrong with Texas?

It's full of Texans!

Offline Eden

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Election results. Dont be Gay in Texas or a gun owner in SF
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2005, 05:47:05 AM »
nice,

harpoon the new guy

Well I'll be going now to pull Seagoon's arrow of sarcasm out of the soft fleshy area just behind my left ear (made even more difficult becasue I pounded it in deeper with my own stupidity)

Just for that I'm going to Colorado and getting some Pot.

Offline Eden

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Election results. Dont be Gay in Texas or a gun owner in SF
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2005, 06:59:39 AM »
Thanks Laser but unfortunately the law required federal proof of sale which mean you could only sell to FFL holders (gun dealers)

I did not get heavily hit by this law as compared to some friends (I am interested in WW2 and older military rifles so most were bolt actions)

Here's an overveiw of prices some things were sold for (horror stories of final cash in hand after all the paperwork and transfer fees etc)

AK47 - $25
AR-15  - $25 to $50
M-1 Carbine - $10
:cry

Offline Eden

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Election results. Dont be Gay in Texas or a gun owner in SF
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2005, 07:22:15 AM »
Here are some reasons why NJ gun owners are so sensitive

http://www.montclairtimes.com/page.php?page=10729

http://www.american-partisan.com/cols/2002/tedlang/qtr4/1028a.htm

http://www.ceasefirenj.org/


"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans"
President Bill Clinton at press conference in Piscataway NJ 3/1/93, Boston Globe 3/2/93 & USA Today 3/11/93

Offline lazs2

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Election results. Dont be Gay in Texas or a gun owner in SF
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2005, 08:52:39 AM »
eden... we weren't  ambushing you..  Your arguements are very good and make good common sense and speak to human rights and justice..... It's unfortunate that the law seldom does.

Another good point is that this will give the "regestration is the first step in confiscation" guys a pretty good case study to point to. (not that any sensible person would dissagree)...

The NRA was poised to attack this law.   They will do so.  

Another good point is SOF's link to the police site...  the police are no friends of the gun grabbers despite what the commies tell you... The police chiefs ass. is a different matter... they are worthless commie politicos just like their masters.   The rank and file cop still has a little testosterone and some common sense.

SF is a microcosm of the gun debate.   I don't know why NJ wasn't but I suspect that when you have liberal lefties in the highest seats of our government you had to have expected that you would get screwed..

lastly....  this is an extremely good time to have some more constitutionalists on the Supreme court and some republican placed judges in all courts..

It's all working out OK so far as I can see... The NRA is allmost gloating.

lazs

Offline beet1e

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Election results. Dont be Gay in Texas or a gun owner in SF
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2005, 09:06:25 AM »
LOL! yet another gun thread! :lol

But I can't be arsed with this one. They all end up the same way, but...
Quote
Originally posted by Eden
How does making it illegal for honest, law abiding citizens to purchase handguns decrease the murder rate when most crimes involving handguns are committed with illegal weapons?
In the US, it probably couldn't. The time to have acted would be long ago, before your country systematically armed all its criminals. Apparently our legislators here in Britain could see how it would all end up, if we did as the US has done in response to the problem of firearms in the hands of criminals,  - ie NOTHING.

Here in Britain, concern was growing with regard to the increasing number of weapons finding their way into criminal hands, and the Firearms Act was passed a couple of years after this report was published.

Blackwell Report of 1918
Quote
It will be seen, therefore, that prior to the war there was strong reason for amending the law, and this was recognised by the Government in 1911 when the Bill to which we shall presently refer in detail was drafted under the instructions of the Home Secretary. Strong, however, as the case was in 1911, it is immensely stronger now. We have to face the situation that the war will have added enormously to the world's stock of rifles and pistols, that large numbers of pistols, and possibly other weapons, will have come into the possession of private persons, notably discharged soldiers and their relatives, and that the number of men skilled in the use of firearms will have greatly increased. It must also be borne in mind that we can hardly hope to escape on demobilisation an increase in crime. Large numbers of the criminal classes have entered the Army, both voluntarily and under the Military Service Acts; and however effective may be the measures taken to facilitate the return of discharged soldiers to civil life and peaceful occupations, it would be unreasonable to expect that all these men will be ready to settle down at once to agricultural or industrial employment. There would be additional ground for apprehension if men of this class, and indeed discharged soldiers in general, were permitted to retain any revolvers which have come into their possession during their army service, or to procure them under the easy conditions allowed by the existing law.
Most people here are content with the status quo, although I readily concede that the laws are not 100% perfect, as they would have to be in order for some of the posters in this thread to feel that the law is worthwhile.

The way it works here is that with legislation targetting supply, it is much more difficult for the criminals to get weapons. Not impossible mind you, but difficult. Some will  say "bah, criminals can always get guns". No, but admittedly, they sometimes can.

Well, what killjoys those US lawmakers are! Can't you just tell them that guns are inanimate objects blah blah blah and are therefore "not the problem"?
:rofl

Offline lazs2

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Election results. Dont be Gay in Texas or a gun owner in SF
« Reply #41 on: November 10, 2005, 09:19:53 AM »
we will tell em beet... you watch.

lazs

Offline Eden

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Election results. Dont be Gay in Texas or a gun owner in SF
« Reply #42 on: November 10, 2005, 10:00:26 AM »
Beetle,

Thanks for the link and information.
 I am new to this forum and so I know I am repeating what has been said in the past.

My points:

I am not so much in favor of guns but of Freedom.  

1) The idea of Freedom in America is founded on a balance of power between the government and its citizens.  Part of this balance is based on a voluntarily armed populous.  This is a fundemental right.

2) In every civilized society there are going to be dissidents who attempt to use the benefits of freedom against the society for their own personal gain.  We cannot sacrifice the freedoms of the lawful due to the actions of the dissidents.  You can't afford to sacrifice freedoms due to the potential for misuse (ther is always risk that crimes will be committed when people are given choices... need to have faith that people will do the right thing - at least most of the time...this is where the idea of freedom comes from). Criminals may get guns when guns are available.  It is only one risk of many that exist in a society based on personal liberty.   (on a side note: the US has significantly changed its policy on soldiers keeping "war trophies" - it is no longer legal and is a significant crime...soldiers in the US army do not keep any military weapons that they get)

3) Gun owners (in certain parts of the US) are labeled as criminals simply due to their desire to own these "evil" implements.  It is a label and perception that has somehow become an accepted "truth".  It is hard to convince the less enlightened that owning a gun does not imply the desire to use it for illegal and evil acts.  Even criminals caught in the act are still labeled as "innocent until proven guilty" ... this does not seem to apply to gun ownership.  It is a form of discrimination and a violation of civil rights.  Furthermore, this ideology is skewing the issue and dumbing the whole discussion down to a level where the wrong questions are being asked (what is a "Smart Gun anyway" and where can I get a handgun with nano-technology?).

Lazs,

Oh, I know..not feeling picked on.  Just concerned that yet again the focus of government is on the wrong thing.  Instead of personal accountability for actions ... other people or "things" are blamed for criminal actions.  The whole idea of guns as evil stems from the idea that "its not the criminal's fault that the crime was committed...it lies somewhere else".  Must be the gun.  Too bad politicians don't really care about civil liberties and their only desire is to stay in power.  
I can tell by this forum that this discussion has gone on many times before and there is a general air of frustration (not this again!).  Just saw things change so rapidly in NJ and wanted to put up the red flag and make sure folks know what can happen (because it has happened).

Case Example:
A former neighbor and WW2 vet given the option of purchasing his M-1 carbine after leaving the military in 1951.  Buys it.  40+ years later he becomes a criminal when a law is passed outlawing "assault weapons".  A law based on the way a weapon looks. He is unaware of the law (in his 70s when it is passed) and when he learns about it and turns the weapon in during an amnesty turn in.



"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans"
President Bill Clinton at press conference in Piscataway NJ 3/1/93, Boston Globe 3/2/93 & USA Today 3/11/93

Offline lazs2

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Election results. Dont be Gay in Texas or a gun owner in SF
« Reply #43 on: November 10, 2005, 10:15:11 AM »
eden... your arguement is well laid out and to the heart of the matter...

beet in the past has had a tizzie fit when I claimed that 5,000 or 9,000 homicides involving firearms was nothing to me.  it did not change my opinion on personal freedom... just like 1,000 of drowning deaths a year do not change my mind on allowing people the right to swim..

In the case of firearms tho...  the death rate can't be proven to go up or down based on the amount of firearms... homicide rates stay constant... england is a good example... their homicide rate has allways been less than ours and... it never changed no matter what gun bans/laws were passed... you may say that there are less firearms homicides in england now but you are gullible in the extreme to believe that you are any safer from being murdered...  your chances are the same... you just have less chance to defend yourself from it and... you let your govenment have even more power over you.  More potential for tyranny...

lazs

Offline Eden

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Election results. Dont be Gay in Texas or a gun owner in SF
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2005, 12:22:51 PM »
I am a little familiar with the restriction on war trophies.  Tried to get this back home but had a little problem getting it in my duffel bag:






Oh cr*p I just realized that I indicated that I might live in NJ and I might own a gun.   What was that?  Who's at my door?  Got to hide now.  

:noid