Author Topic: What do you guys think of Lieberman, is his being Jewish an issue?  (Read 3910 times)

Offline RAM

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What do you guys think of Lieberman, is his being Jewish an issue?
« Reply #60 on: August 26, 2000, 07:34:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Toad:
Sort of the same situation the Finns found themselves in when the Russians attacked?  


not near. Finns had the terrain on their side, they defended a more or less narrow land zone, with fortifications (outdated, but fortifications, nonetheless), in winter with freezing temperatures of -40ºC.

Denmark is a flat country with no natural defenses nor defensive lines,and they were attacked on spring. To say that both situatios are comparable would make a Militar high commander die laughing.


 
Quote
Ram, react all you like, cast aspersions as you will.

My post is just a simple statement of historic fact. That's all it is.

More Danes died fighting for the Germans than died fighting against them. The information I quoted comes from a DANISH site on military history.

and Danes saved countless jew people's lifes hiding them in their houses knowing that if they ever were caught it woud have meant immediate death, so engrossing your "list of died for nazism or against it".

And about how do I take your statements, it is clear. I said it before, no need to repeat it.

Offline StSanta

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What do you guys think of Lieberman, is his being Jewish an issue?
« Reply #61 on: August 26, 2000, 11:13:00 AM »
Hey Toad  .

The "war" with Germany was so short and futile than fortunately not many Danish lives where lost. As RAM has pointed out, Denmark has no natural barriers whatsoever; apart from a little misnamed fjord right where I live (have to cross it every day).

If you take a car, you can drive from one end to the other in say four or five hours. It'll take a little longer in a pnz  .

Where Denmark excelled was in smuggling humans to Sweden.

I wonder; how can you take pride in what someone else did? Do you take pride in the firebombings of Dresden as well? Or the Holocaust? The only real difference between you and a German born at that time would be age and culture. Meaning you might as well take credit or blame for what they did. I don't think geographical borders is a good way to artificially boost oneself, but your mileage may vary.

 
Quote
Yeah, we never have been fond of sending men to their slaughter in "human wave" attacks. We've pretty much always favored using firepower instead of human blood to achieve an objective.
Or seen from another point of view, you let the Polacks, the Britons, the Soviets do all the hard work and dying. Apart from the Soviets, I dare say that the British and Polacks didn't want to see their soldiers die needlessly. American casulaties during WWII were, in fact, relatively light, yet we Europeans hear to no end what an enormous sacrifice the US did. In terms of manpower and war effort, aye. In terms of casualties; not true to the same extent. In terms of civilian casualties, it's laughable.

Another few interesting numbers about allied bombers; on a good day, they could kill more defenseless civilians than they lost aircrews during the whole war. Such numbers serve as an awakening call.

Or, to put it in your words, the Americans didn't want to send wave after wave in to get killed, but were content on using high altitude bombers to kill civilians, according to a plan that had been tried before and didn't work.

Those silent casualties of war have few to speak for them - it is sort of agreed that since they were enemy population, the killing of them was sort of half intentional, half unintentional and they deserved it anyhow.

Whoever came up with the idea of resorting to the methods of an Austrian madmen and firebomb civilians ought to be found, dug up from his grave and shot.

I realize that most Americans have no idea what the whole bombing of cities was like. The British do, to a somewhat lesser extent than the Germans. I have however German relatives and I've been relayed stories by either people alive at the time or stories told by parents to their kids about it. And there ain't a diddlying decent thing about it - nothing.

Toad, don't you WONDER about why the hell all those airmen died? Died slaughtering CIVILIANS? For what cause? For what reason?

The only way to glorify it is by saying "we targeted military targets and some collateral damage was inevitable". Unfortunately, this isn't true. As the war progressed, and due to the wildly inaccuracy of high level carpet bombing, whole cities were targeted for destruction.

But mention this to Americans, and they're likely to yell "hell we saved your bellybutton back then". Sure, you did. But don't forget what you also did. Also, take a look at who started the whole mess; either a madman from Austria (and that means France, Britain, Poland, Holla,d Denmark etc is excluded) or the allieds by making the Versailles peace treaty the way it was.

Efforts to prevent WWII *were* made, most noticeably by Chamberlain, who later was lambasted for it.

 
Quote
So, even had we known you were going to hand out awards later, we'd probably still have done it in a way that conserved the lives of
our sons to the maximum extent possible.
Translation: so, even if the Britons, the Polacks and French were in deep doo doo, we would let them die and take the casualties before we rolled in and mopped up whatever was left  .

My statement is about as sweeping and exact as yours, and as offensive.

Don't get me wrong; I appreciate the efforts and sacrifices made by the Americans, and when they joined the war the tide turned. But in terms of human casualties and suffering, they had a f00k'n easy ride compared to other allieds. And they and the Brits were wrong in the decision to systematically kill civilians, and this should be accepted and recognized to *the same extent* as the glorious victories and sacrifices.

<waits by the water>

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Offline Downtown

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What do you guys think of Lieberman, is his being Jewish an issue?
« Reply #62 on: August 26, 2000, 05:55:00 PM »
StSanta,

The one thing I say about terror bombing of Civilians, is that the U.S. Was not the first country to use that tactic.  And the countries that the U.S. used that tactic against did it for as long as the U.S. employed that strategy.

I know what you will say about Germany.  Yep their scope of Terror Bombing was less than the U.S.

The Germans bombed Guernica to the ground in 1935 or 36?  The Germans did bomb London, they bombed (I can't remember the name of the city in Holland) to the ground also.  

The Germans didn't build many long range multi-engine bombers but had they I am certain that they would have employed them more.  Once Hitler had the Buzz bomb and V2 going he didn't need long range bombers.

The Japanese bombed cities in China without even the allusion that they were trying to hit military targets.  It was simply to kill civilians.

I don't like the practice of terror bombing, and the studies show that it doesn't work, it just instills resolve in the victim to resist.

If a country uses this tactic, terror bombing, should they not expect a similar response?  

When the war started the Germans and the British went out of their way to avoid hitting civilian targets.  When that tactic changed to bombing cities, the English got a break.  Had the strategy not changed things could have been much different.

So, I agree, the U.S. did a scummy thing and bombed civilians.  And the Germans were launching Rockets into London while the Americans were bombing civilians.

Perhaps we can learn this lesson, I hope, and in the next war all parties will avoid using terror bombing.  BUT, if one of the participants does engage in this tactic.  I won't blame the other side for responding in kind or escalating the bombing either.

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Offline Cabby

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What do you guys think of Lieberman, is his being Jewish an issue?
« Reply #63 on: August 27, 2000, 05:48:00 AM »
Quote:

"But in terms of human casualties and suffering, they had a f00k'n easy ride compared to other allieds."

And your point???  Who gives a toejam.

I recommend that tinhorn Dictators and other megalomaniac types not attack the US Fleet or any of the USA's Allies.   The consequences could be fatal.  As in the aggressor nation could become just a burnt-hole in the ground.

You start 'em.   We finish 'em.

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Offline StSanta

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What do you guys think of Lieberman, is his being Jewish an issue?
« Reply #64 on: August 27, 2000, 05:50:00 AM »
Downtown:

Terror bombing is something you expect from Bad Guys, just like rape, murder and torture is. You *cannot* justify it by saying "hey, the bad guys did it, so we can do do it".

No matter how you twist and turn it, you aren't reallly bombing those who ordered V1's/V2's to be launched at London. And it is very hard to conftront that many Americans died in vain killing civilians.

I don't care that the Germans started with terror bombing. They were the bad guys and as such it was expected. But, I would have thought that the good guys would a)have learned about its futility b) have more regard for their own airmen and c) would be morally more upright than the bad guys.

In the case of terror bombings, they weren't any of those three. More like massive revenge taken out on the German people.

Saddam gassed Kurds. Let's gas Iraqi's. Liberia tortures its citizens - let's too!

To me, the *waste* of American airmen and German civilians is pretty much inexcusable.

British and American leaders ought to have known better, did know better, but ignored it.

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Offline Downtown

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What do you guys think of Lieberman, is his being Jewish an issue?
« Reply #65 on: August 27, 2000, 06:54:00 AM »
StSanta,

Is the community you live in so great?

I guess that my study of history had led me to expect less of our world leaders.  I can't explain why the allies "didn't know better," but I stopped expecting better behavior.

I would say that U.S. Military policy in all of the wars (excluding Vietnam) was shaped during the U.S. Civil war, where entire towns and regions were destroyed to keep subsistance from reaching the Confederated.

It is very barbaric, and IMHO when it comes to war it works, destroy your enemy, destroy your enemies ability to make war, destroy your enemies will to make war, make your enemy suffer hardship and privation while enduring to engage your forces.  Leaving your opponent any resources, food, clothing, shelter, family back home will enable his ability to resist your forces.  Therefore those things need to be removed from the equation in order to achieve victory.  Come to win, or don't come at all.

Now, there is discussion, but I am of the opinion that the majority of the U.S. Bombing raids over Germany and Japan served little to no purpose during WWII.  The most you can say is that the Allied Bombers helped keep the Luftwaffe over the skies of Germany, which enabled the Allies to have Air Superioity over the Rest of Western and Southern Europe.

Was it right? Well we have had 60 years to reflect on that, nope, it wasn't, IMHO.  But, it comes down to opinion and you are entitled to yours, those allied aircrews volunteered for the most part to fly those sorties.  They knew the risk, generally knew what they were doing, they were willing to accept the concequences of their actions.  I am sure that they were able to rationalize and justify their actions in their own minds.  60 years later I feel I can disagree with those choices, but I don't feel that I have the right to criticise the men and women who made them.

And IMHO, if you start using a tactic, I.E. Terror bombing, you have NO right in expressing constirnation(sp?) against someone who revisits a like or escalated measure of the same action against you.

If you don't want it to happen to you, and you want moral ground to stand on when the dust settles, don't start it.

Your country did suffer, I have read enough about it to know, I have been to Denmark and Holland.  My wifes Grandfather, from Holland, spent time in a German labor camp, and walked from the Ruhr valley back to Holland after the war.  My father in law was born in Amsterdam, my wife still has cousins that live there.  My own Grandfather left Germany shortly after Hitler came to power.  My Grandfather changed his last name because he thought that the U.S. would eventually round up German citizens in the U.S. as they did the Niesei and inter them in camps.  He spent the war working on the ALCAN Highway between Washington State and Alaska basically hiding from the law.

It wasn't the innocent and romantic time that we would all like to believe it was. It was a time of War.  If you talke to Veterans who served in that war they have, in all cases that I have met, a strong belief that what they did was right.  There is no shame in that generation and I have great respect for the individuals who served.  I don't necessarily agree with everything that they said or did, but I respect them.  When I talk to veterans, they are often suprised at the knowledge I posses.  I ask them how they felt about the bombing of Berlin and Tokyo or Nagasaki or Hiroshima and they don't express regret.  The general sentiment is that "we did what we had to, to win."  I think they did more than they had to, I am glad they didn't do less than they had to.

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Offline StSanta

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What do you guys think of Lieberman, is his being Jewish an issue?
« Reply #66 on: August 27, 2000, 08:36:00 AM »
Downtown:

The place I live is pretty decent, yeh.

It seems you agree with me that the terror bombings were totally wrong and uncalled for, and that they didn't succeed in what they were there for; break the morale of the enemy civilian population.

Of course, the allieds knew that before they started bombing.

Us living in the time we do does not disqualify us from commenting on the past - we condemn the Holocaust, yet weren't around at the time.

I am not critizising the aircrews themselves - they went up against heavily defended cities, had to face death each and every day and made a tremendous sacrifice.

They were, however, betrayed by their political masters. They were forced to fight and die; for what reasons? Blood revenge. They died because their leaders thought that bombing civilians was the right thing to do.

It's misuse of these men's fighting abilities, their trust and their lives.

Just think about it - they forced young men to die bombing civilians.

It's wrong from whatever perspective you look at it. To the civilians but also to the bomber crews.



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Offline Toad

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What do you guys think of Lieberman, is his being Jewish an issue?
« Reply #67 on: August 29, 2000, 08:26:00 PM »
Downtown,

I think I've read all but one of Ambrose's books. I started long before the movie came out too.    

Last trip I read _Soldat_ by Siegfried Knappe. Two 1/2 stars; a staff weenies view of war on the Eastern Front.

I also read _Strong Men Armed The United States Marines vs Japan_ by Robert Leckie. 3 stars; a combat marine's view of all the major USMC Pacific battles.

Sure, it's possible we could have done even better on the casualties. Remember, it was for the most part a non-professional army. They WERE "citizen soldiers"; mistakes were made. That's probably true of every army that ever took the field however.

I think an important factor in the relatively low number of deaths would have to directly attributed to the medical care the troops received. Ambrose points that out pretty well.

Using artillery too much? I'd rather use 50 rounds of inanimate artillery ammo than have even one soldier sliced by a kid with a pocket knife. Unfortunately, that's not always possible.

It wasn't a contest to see who had the best infantry tactics...it was a contest to see who could win the war with the fewest casualties as fast as possible.

I never met a veteran who wanted to be "over there". Everyone I ever talked to wanted to get home as soon as they could.

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-29-2000).]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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What do you guys think of Lieberman, is his being Jewish an issue?
« Reply #68 on: August 29, 2000, 09:18:00 PM »
Ram,

Here's a few more facts (from

"Between the first and the second World War the attitude in Denmark was dominated by the successful Danish neutrality policy in WW1. The Danish government felt confident that a friendly attitude towards Germany would prevent hostilities. As a result the Danish armed forces were reduced to a level where they had no deterrence value and the country could not be defended adequately. When Germany invaded the Army counted 14.500 men. In 1939 some 30.000 more had been mobilised, but these had since been sent home again. In 1940 mobilisation did not occur in order to prevent provoking Germany....

The government was presented with the German ultimatum in the morning of the 9th of April 1940 and protested, but accepted while bombers flew over the city. Due to the earlier neglects no effective opposition was possible and the aim of the government was to reduce the suffering to a minimum. While this attitude did get Denmark through the war with a minimum of casualties it nearly resulted in the exclusion of Denmark from the league of allied nations...

The Danish resistance movement was very limited until the turning points of the war in 1942. From then on it expanded rapidly."

 

Now contrast this to Finland (from [URL=http://www.uwm.edu/~jpipes/wwar.html)]

When the Winter War began, the soldiers were provided with a belt, a national cocade, and most of the time, an old French rifle. Only the regular army and the Suojeluskunta men had proper equipment.

The defensive plan of the Finnish high command was dated in 1934 and it had as its basic premise the idea of stopping an enemy attack on the Karelian Isthmus at a certain point where natural obstacles like the Vuoksi-river would suppress the enemy forces and prevent their operational possibilities. This line was later christened, by the international press, the Mannerheim-line. It went from east to west on a line Taipale-Suvanto-Vuoksi-Äyräpäänjärvi-Muolaanjärvi-Kipinolan-järvi. It had 67 concrete bunkers mostly in the Summa and Lähde regions. It wasn’t a favored operational plan, and was strongly criticised before the war, and a lack of funding prevented further construction.....

The equipment of the Finnish army was nearly obsolete. Most Finnish equipment was termed "malli Cajander" or Model Cajander, named after the pre-war prime minister who was blamed for cutting back on army funding (mentioned above). During the mobilization it was estimated that the army could provide every man a uniform jacket by January and a overcoat by February...

...and from one other site 9http://cda.mrs.umn.edu/~mattsons/winwar.html)

What has enabled the Finns to keep on fighting is what the Finns would call sisu. Sisu refers to the concept of life that says "I may not win, but I will give my life gladly for what I believe."

So, what I see is one HUGE difference...best summed up by this quote from John Stuart Mill, an English philosopher.

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse.

A person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

That about sums it up for me.    

All I have time for tonite; I look forward to swapping more inflammatory philosophies with you guys in the future!      



[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-29-2000).]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline StSanta

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What do you guys think of Lieberman, is his being Jewish an issue?
« Reply #69 on: August 30, 2000, 07:55:00 AM »
Toad:

Let me fill in with some data from that site you conventiently missed.

"While the operations did have an economic impact on Germany it never reached a scale where partisan activities took control of larger areas. The flat and open Danish terrain is not well suited to large-scale partisan operations. However small its actual effect was, the resistance movement showed the world that the Danish population did not wish to be ruled by Germany. This, and probably more important, the 5000 sailors that joined the allied merchant fleets, were the main reasons that Denmark ended the war as an allied country."

and

"Another important contribution to the allied war effort was made by the Danish envoy in Washington. He did not recognise the government in Copenhagen during the war and acting on his own he granted the US basing
rights in the Danish controlled Greenland. This allowed the transfer of short-range aircraft to Britain via Greenland and Iceland."

or:

"The dislike or hatred to the German was
widespread and manifested in different ways.
E.g. by wearing British colours, avoiding
contact with the Germans, Alsang - the
gathering of thousands of people to sing
Danish songs etc."

or how about

"Contrary to other occupied contries, the Danish Nazi parti (DNSAP) never got any political influence. The primary reason for this, was its lack of support in the Danish population. At the parlimentary election in 1939 they got 1,8 % of the votes and 3 seats in the parliamentary. At the election in March 1943 they got 2,1 %"

2100 Danish soldiers joined the allied armed forces. Some 5000 sailor the merchant fleet - of these, 1300 were killed.

and of course tying up some 220 000 men and more than a few aircraft doesn't count    .

Now, you're implying that the Danes really didn't mind being occupied by the Germans and didn't fight back. Dude, my great grandfather stored dynamite under my grandmothers bed during the war. Dynamite used to blow things up the Germans were using. The problems early on in the war was lack of weapons and explosive, and organisation. This did get better with drops by the RAF and USAF.

On my way to a gas station nearby, I pass a metalsquare that's been installed in the ground that reads "Here XXXX(cannot recal name) died defending Denmark and freedom, killed by the Germans". You can find such things here and there where I live.

Your rather selective reading shows your hidden agenda. But don't let that stop you.

If I could go back in time, I'd smack down on those bloody politicians for being cowardly puppets That an envoy can just disagree with them and has his will (as in the case of Greenland) sort of shows what it really was.

But, for all the bravado and machoism you seem to admire; there is a time to fight, and there is a time to just survive. The Fins are just too drunk to ever realize this. Just look at Staga    

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to salute some Britons, some Polacks and most of all some Russians who did all the dying for us (and most for you).

I'll give the Americans a nod, for bringing smokes.

<grins>

Great fun this :=)

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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime


[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 08-30-2000).]

Offline Rooster

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What do you guys think of Lieberman, is his being Jewish an issue?
« Reply #70 on: August 30, 2000, 08:07:00 AM »
Yes indeed you have to admire them brave and "allied" Dane fighters. They and their counterparts in France who bravely stood up to the German Juggernaut, you know the shopkeeper who sold his second best wine at full rates or the Hooker that willingly spread the clap to decrease some Soldats combat readiness    
Heck StSanta, have a smoke on me

Offline Staga

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What do you guys think of Lieberman, is his being Jewish an issue?
« Reply #71 on: August 30, 2000, 09:11:00 AM »
liHmph.....

StSanta:
Maybe I'm getting old; I still had some whisky and cognac on my home bar which are from last Christmas (and few litres of Finlandia    )
Guess I had to check if there's a "Best before next Sunday" tag on those    

edit:
Finns; No Fins.
Agree or I'll send you couple things with fins by 3:rd class post...

 


[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 08-30-2000).]

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #72 on: August 30, 2000, 03:21:00 PM »
Heh Rooster.

When you know what you're talking about, lemme know.

Until then, my time is better spent drinking wine and spending time with potatos.

 



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Offline Toad

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« Reply #73 on: September 01, 2000, 09:58:00 PM »
Ah, ya miss a few days working and you can never catch up!

Anyway, let's talk about "terror bombing".

The guy that gets the credit for first suggesting it as an "airpower doctrine" was an Italian, General Giulio Douhet. Douhet argued that the heart of an enemy's resistance was its population. I don't want to write a book about it but here's Douhet's theory in brief clips from a few websites. Clipping is faster than rewriting.  

AS USUAL, I'll provide the site...I'm not going to say "I heard it from a friend"  

"Douhet understood that the technological advances in weaponry made during World War I were not fully utilized by Allied commanders. Douhet thus spent the decade after the war constructing a theory that would facilitate the strategic use of what he conceived to be the biggest technological breakthrough of all, the airplane. As such scholars as Raymond Flugel have pointed out, Douhet's theories were crucial at a pivotal pre-World War II Army Air Force institution, the Air Corps Tactical School. Over time, these theories became institutionalized to the point that they were rarely questioned. Their influence was subsequently evident in strategic Air Force operations...

What did Douhet propose to do with this offensive power? Quite clearly, his most pressing goal was twofold. On the one hand, he argued that air power should be directed toward the utter obliteration of the enemy's industrial base. Typically, Douhet minced no words when he argued that a strike force "should always operate in mass" to "crush the material ... resistance of the enemy."9 Second, Douhet was convinced that the effect of this was to, without doubt, demoralize the enemy population. He thus wrote:

In terms of military results, it is much more important to destroy a railroad station, a bakery, a war plant, or to machine-gun a supply column, moving trains, or any other behind-the-lines objective, than to strafe or bomb a trench. The results are immeasurably greater in breaking morale ... in spreading terror and panic..."

FROM: http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1986/sep-oct/eula.html


For a better understanding of the other arguments, check out this site:
 http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/presentation/faber.html

Here's a quick review chart I clipped from there.

Fig. 1 - Representative Targeting Strategies Prior to 1945

Pre-War Theorist(s)/ Target Set(s)
 
Salvaneschi /Major munitions factories

Slessor/ Troops, supplies, production

Douhet/ Population (cities)

Harris/ Population (cities)

Mitchell /  Vital centers

Wilberg, Weber,& the Ger. Gen. Staff/ Enemy field army

Trenchard/(in 1920s) War materiel,transportation,communications

During War Theorist(s)/ Target Set(s)

Committee of Operations Analysts (COA)/ Munitions plants

Air Corps Tactical School/ Key economic
nodes (industrial web)

Economic Objectives Unit (EOU)/ Oil/transportation

You can get more detail by researching these names with a search engine also. However, until you understand that PRIOR TO WW2 airpower had never really been used STRATEGICALLY, you are simply viewing what happened through your own 1990's prejudices.

In other words, no one really KNEW how to use strategic airpower. The equipment had never been available before and everything was simply THEORY. Like noses, there's always plenty of theories. Remember,the Boeing B-17 prototype, perhaps the first "heavy strategic bomber", first flew on July 28, 1935 and was first used in combat by the RAF in 1941. It was untried.

Further, consider the "Geneva Convention" argument. I highly suggest a review of this site before you make statements about the "rights of civilians in WW2".
 http://www.crf-usa.org/bria/bria15_3.html#fire

You'll quickly learn a lot of information on how civilians became targets in WW2 (as well as who started targeting civilians first). Here's just a bit of that info, with emphasis added:

"Civilian Bombing and the Laws of War

Attempts to control warfare from the air occurred as early as 1899. European powers agreed at The Hague (a Dutch city) to prohibit dropping explosives "from balloons or by other new methods of a similar nature." The Hague Convention of 1907 went further by banning bombardments "by whatever means" on "undefended" towns.

World War I saw the first civilian casualties from air bombing. In 1915, the first-reported victim was an English child killed by a bomb dropped from a German zeppelin (an airship more rigid and larger than a blimp). Throughout the war, zeppelin and airplane attacks on English and German cities killed almost 2,000 civilians.

After World War I, European and American military strategists debated what would happen if civilians became the main targets of air-bombing attacks. An influential Italian military writer, General Giulio Douhet, actually argued for the sustained bombing of civilians. He predicted that they would become quickly demoralized by such bombing and would force their leaders to surrender.

Despite the theories of Douhet, most at this time felt that bombing civilians was uncivilized and should be prohibited. In 1923, Britain, France, Italy, Japan, and the United States agreed to a set of rules for air warfare. One article prohibited bombing from the air "for the purpose of terrorizing the civilian population . . . or of injuring noncombatants. . . ." The participating governments, however, never ratified these rules, so they were not legally binding. At the Geneva Disarmament Conference of 1932, most of the world's powers agreed that air attacks on civilians violated the laws of war. But the conference broke up before approving a final agreement.

In the years leading up to World War II, Japan became the first power to attack civilians from the air. In 1932, Japanese warplanes bombed a worker district in Shanghai, China, an incident that produced worldwide outrage. The outrage did not stop Japan from bombing civilian areas of other Chinese cities."

In short, my friends, there were NO LAWS IN EFFECT to protect civilians from bombing. NONE. It may offend our 1990's morality now, but despite offending the morality of just a few countries prior to WW2 it was not prohibited.

Now, the total lack of legal protection coupled with a totally new weapon of war and an abundance of theories on how to use this weapon resulted in the bombing of civilians.

Was Douhet a monster? No. If you read his work closely, you'll find that he wanted to prevent war or end it quickly without the slaughter that attended the trench warfare of WWI. Like those who said the introduction of the machine gun in WWI had made war too terrible to ever contemplate again, Douhet made a similar case for bombing.

Did all the Air Forces of the world test his theory? Absolutely. Did it work? No, not for any side.

Should they have given up on it sooner? Probably; that would undoubtedly have saved a lot of civilian lives.

Those of you who were actually IN the military in some country know how unlikely an event that would have been.

Once military doctrine is set, as it was in this case BEFORE the war, doctrine is unlikely to change during the conflict. Yes, there's discussion. Those who say "it isn't working" are countered by those who say "we haven't hit them hard enough/long enough...just a little more will do the trick." What usually results is a continuation of the "old" doctrine and an addition of "new" doctrine to try.

Once the war was over, the various bombing surveys pretty much discounted and disproved Douhet's theories.

So civilians were no longer targets, right?

Absolutely wrong! The entire basis of the Cold War standoff was "Mutual Assured Destruction", the "MAD Doctrine". The US assured the Russians that we would totally destroy their country and almost their entire population if they ever launched a nuke at us...and the Russians made the same promise to the US.

CIVILIANS were the targets in the Cold War. When you launch a 50 megaton warhead at New York or Moscow to destroy a "war materials factory" you aren't going after the factory and everyone knows it.

Civilians during the Cold War were going to be held gruesomely and fatally responsible for the actions of their governments.

So, how far have we, the enlightened and caring, progressed from Douhet?


If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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What do you guys think of Lieberman, is his being Jewish an issue?
« Reply #74 on: September 01, 2000, 10:04:00 PM »
BTW, Santa...

I was just starting at the top...we'll get to the more interesting matter in a while.

 
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!