Author Topic: Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?  (Read 3756 times)

Offline Squire

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« on: December 06, 2005, 03:15:38 AM »
I was going through my book "Hellcat" by David Handerton, and I came across a passage regarding the engine on the F6F-5.

To paraphrase, it said quite simply that many of the water injection units were removed in the field for ease of maintenance.

If thats true it explains the two sets of top speed #s we get sometimes, 380mph and 409 mph.

TAIC probably tested a F6F-5 with W, as opposed to without.

Its also the sort of thing that throws monkey works into research, and doesnt always make its way into the history books.  

Hmm.

Btw, I am not a anti-Hellcat guy, my old AH squadron was an allied navy unit (check my avatar).
« Last Edit: December 06, 2005, 03:17:50 AM by Squire »
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Offline hogenbor

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2005, 11:04:09 AM »
I always thought that the slower recorded speed of the Hellcat was caused by a misplaced pitot or something. Widewing will know.

Offline F4UDOA

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2005, 01:43:22 PM »
It was a missplaced pitot tube.

The Hellcat was right about a 400MPH bird at 20K in clean condition. Keep in mind that this disparity in speed was discovered in early 1944. Most of the F6F-5 series had the correct placement.

I have a 1948 pilot Handbook with the CAS chart for both airplanes along with performace diagrams.

The 409MPH figure came from the TAIC flight test. That specific A/C had a very unusual speed curve at low altitude like it was using rammed air (which it did not have) and I cannot explain it.

The F6F is an enigima in it's performance why I do not know.

Offline Grits

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2005, 04:02:20 PM »
Its clearly part of a vast anti-Allied conspiracy.

Offline Squire

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2005, 06:18:40 PM »
Be that as it may, that does not mean the F6F-5s water injection was not sometimes removed though.

An F6F-3 and an F6F-5 would be very close in tops speeds without water injection, 376-386 range. The F6F-5 would be a bit faster as it had a slightly better cowling and a few othe minor tweaks for air flow, both having the same hp engine, 2000hp.

Im not disputing the fact the F6F-5 went 409mph with it installed, as the TAIC report seems to indicate that it does (test vs the A6M5).

Its a very good book, and it has a lot of technical detail on the Hellcat.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2005, 06:30:58 PM by Squire »
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Offline Squire

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2005, 08:53:50 PM »
When they revisit the F6F and F4U-1, they should make a clear distinction between the "wet" ratings of the F4U-1D, F4U-4 and F6F-5, and the dry ratings of the early F4U-1 Birdcage model (which had no water injection), with corresponding Hg levels.

I could also see an F6F-3 in the mix at some point too.
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Offline Saxman

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2005, 01:33:16 PM »
That's why I'd like to see the -1A. Same powerplant as the -1C/D without the extra weight would make for a SWEET ride.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Krusty

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2005, 01:40:07 PM »
I think we *have* the -1A. I think it's just got the wrong name, like the p47d40 did.

Offline TimRas

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2005, 02:21:33 PM »
Maybe posted before, but here is Corky Meyer's writing in Flight Journal:

"To simplify the evaluation and reduce data, we decided to test-fly the Hellcat and the Corsair in close formation. Instead of comparing complex calculations, performance could then be compared directly at the critical altitudes of the main stage, high and low blower altitudes of the engine's superchargers, and from cruise to high-speed, level flight with water injection. We also included some formation dives to learn which airplane was the slickest.

Except for the Corsair being 20 knots faster than the Hellcat in the main, sea-level, supercharger stage, both fighters had almost exactly the same speed at the low and high blower stages from 5,000 feet altitude up to service ceiling! In essence, they had the same performance. Our formation flights showed that both airplanes (with similar power settings) were in closely stabilized formation at all altitudes tested above 5,000 feet Sometimes, the Corsair would slowly gain a lead of 100 to 200 feet after five minutes of stabilized power flight, and sometimes, the Hellcat would do the same. Considering that both airplanes had the same engine, propeller, gross weight, wingspan, etc., they should have had about the same performance. We did notice that during these runs, the Corsair always had about a 20-knot indicated airspeed (IAS) advantage! We didn't realize just how embarrassing it would be to solve that dilemma.

The reason the Corsair was faster in the main stage blower was that its engine and carburetor were provided with ram air coming in directly from the forward-facing wing duct, whereas the Hellcat had the carburetor air coming in from the accessory compartment of the fuselage just behind the engine, with no ram air effect Our airplane was getting carburetor air at the same pressure as it would have were it motionless on the ground, and the Corsair was getting carburetor air supercharged by the speed of the airplane giving it more power (speed) in the main stage blower. In both aircraft, however, the designs were similar in that they provided ram air to the low and high blower stages. Our engineering department defended its position because taking the warmer air for the main stage blower would prevent inadvertent carburetor icing engine failures. Many Wildcats that had ram air in the main stage like the Corsair were lost because pilots failed to take precautions in time to avert this type of disaster. The Hellcat design was reviewed and approved by the Navy. I had had a carburetor icing accident during final approach on my first flight in a Wildcat a few months previously; it resulted in my first deadstick landing and a vertical ground loop. I therefore heartily agreed with the Navy's decision.

After noting the 20 knots indicated airspeed difference that had caused all the "lower performance" ruckus for our Hellcat, we eagerly decided to change the airspeed system so that it would read evenly with the Corsair when they were in formation. We had taken a lot of flak from all who had flown both airplanes (but not in formation) and, therefore, everybody 'mew' that the Hellcat was inferior in high-speed performance. We liked our simple and less complicated airspeed system with the static and dynamic orifices on the same boom, but we decided to go whole hog and put the static orifice on the fuselage (like the Corsair) to tailor the system to read 20 knots higher. We tried several orifice locations to get the required reading. After I had done a thorough testing of the final system over the entire flight envelope-or so I thought-I proudly flew the airplane to the Naval Air Test Center at Patuxent, Maryland for an evaluation. We soon found out that we had not purloined the Corsair airspeed system design thoroughly enough.

We soon received the Navy's glowing report of the new system; and it went on to say that the Air Test Center had never tested an airplane with such remarkable low-speed performance in its entire history. They found that in a left side slip with the wheels and flaps extended, the Hellcat could fly at zero airspeed. Wonder of wonders! Grumman led the industry again! Upon re-evaluation, we found that the engineers, inexperienced with flush static airspeed systems, had designed ours with only one orifice on the left side of the airplane, and it was very unbalanced with the flaps down. As the senior engineering test pilot, I was in deep doo-doo for not testing the new system in all side-slip conditions. A dualorifice system way behind the lowered flaps (similar to the Corsair's) finally provided a satisfactory means to give the Hellcat a cockpit indicated airspeed reading comparable to the vaunted Corsair's. That was the last we heard of the Hellcat's performance gap with the Corsair. Performance case closed. "

Offline TequilaChaser

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2005, 06:16:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
I think we *have* the -1A. I think it's just got the wrong name, like the p47d40 did.



F4U-1A had introduction of Bubble Canopy  vs the F4u-1 Birdcage.......if I am not mistaken.

read about the F6f vs F4u  speed / flight comparison long ago roughly 10 years or so, still lots of disbeleivers out there that say it isn't so...........and still most every WWII flight simulation game has the F4Us faster than the F6fs
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2005, 06:18:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Squire

I could also see an F6F-3 in the mix at some point too.



now that would be something to look forward tooooo :aok
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline F4UDOA

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2005, 09:18:44 PM »
TimRas/Tequila,

Consider this.

1. The discovery of this error was in early to mid 1944. Prior to the Pax River JFC.
2. In the Dec 1947 POH for the F6F-3/5 the performance Appendix (Navy Flight Test) dated July 19 1945 list the top speed at sea level as 285Knots (328MPH) and at just under 20,000ft at 339Knots (390MPH).
This flight test was in the "clean" condition at 11,700LBS at combat power.
3.Also consider that the F4U had a 314SQ ft of wing area while the F6F had 334SQ ft of wing area as well as a lerger frontal area and higher drag coefficient.

If you add these things up along with the numerous side by side flight test it is unlikely that the two A/C were ever equal.

By contrast the F4U-1D manual from 1952 the performance index shows the sea level speed as 313Knots (360MPH) and the 20,000FT speed as 360Knots ( 414MPH).

This test was done in the clean condition at 11,500LBS at Combat power.


Also if you look at the A6M5 test numbers closely the F6F-5 performance is at it's highest however speeds are listed as being faster than the A6M5

                   F6F-5        F4U-1D
Sea level    41MPH       48MPH
5000FT       28MPH       42MPH
10,000FT    45MPH       58MPH
15,000FT    62MPH       70MPH
20,000FT    69MPH       78MPH
25,000FT    75MPH       80MPH
30,000FT    66MPH       74MPH

Close but not a match. Notice also the close speed at sea level. This seems out of order but I don't know why.

Offline Squire

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2005, 09:39:44 PM »
The TAIC report does indicate 409mph achieved for the F6F-5 though F4UDOA in the test quoted above, how do you explain the discrepancy? water over no water, or?...
« Last Edit: December 07, 2005, 09:51:18 PM by Squire »
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2005, 09:46:16 PM »
ok F4UDOA,

so you saying all them test done by the Navy on the F6f-5 had the pitot tube in its factory installed place verses the same location as the F4U had it's own pitot tube located? so all test and data shown is like it is showing these numbers. If they had relocated the pitot tube in every test then the numbers would be higher or not?

anyhow, some say it was just as fast some say it wasn't, and in this game it will never be.......... :D


TC
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Offline F4UDOA

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2005, 10:02:18 PM »
The TAIC A6M5 report does say that WEP was used on the F4U-1D, F6F-5 and FM-2.

Also the FW190 TAIC test on the F6F-3 shows WEP at 60" MAP.

Again the same use of WEP in the NAVAIR F6F-5 chart as well as the POH I am referencing.

I have never seen a flight test for the F6F that did not include the use of water so I can't really explain what I haven't seen and I have NAVIR, TAIC, Royal Navy, USN, Grumman and Vought test.

I don't doubt the F6F is a 400MPH bird but more than that is optimistic.