Author Topic: Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?  (Read 3758 times)

Offline ShortyDoowap

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2005, 08:55:47 PM »
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Yes. In my above post, I tried to use the same terminology as found in the Corky Meyer quote, which was a bit different than the one I was used to.


OK.


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The superchanger sequence "Neutral Gear, Low Gear, High Gear" you pointed out is what I'm familiar with, too, and the Corky Meyer quote seems to use "Low Gear, Main Stage, High Gear" instead. (Maybe I misunderstood that.)


I haven’t seen the quote to which you refer.  But frankly, this doesn’t make any sense.  It would be a very inefficient to fly the plane in this matter. Maybe it was a mis-speak, or an error.  

The R-2800-8 makes more power at sea-level in neutral blower than in low-blower.  And it makes more power at medium altitude in low-blower than it would in neutral.  On top of that, at medium altitude, in neutral, there would be no ram effect.  






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Yes that's the normal sequence. However, it seems that this is not what happens in the BuAer data set for the F6F-5:

http://www.history.navy.mil/branche...-ac/fighter.htm


That’s exactly what happens.  Neutral, Low, and High are all represented at both Military Power and Combat Power on both the climb and speed charts – in the correct order of use.  You’d get a wild looking chart if they were represented in the “low-neutral-high” sequence.    



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The problems I have with the BuAer graph can maybe explained best using the climb graph.

You can see that at MIL, the full throttle height of Neutral Gear is just below 2000 ft.


The “full throttle” term is mucking things up at this point and perhaps it’s a point of confusion..  

That point to which you refer at the 2,000 foot mark in Military Power is the critical altitude of the engine in neutral blower at Military Power.  The plane would not be at full throttle at that point.  The throttle would be at the military power setting.  The full throttle position would have made put it at combat power.  


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At the higher boost at Combat Power, full throttle height would be about -500 ft, so Neutral Gear is not used in climb at Combat Power.


No, neutral blower is used in the combat power climb.  Both the Military Power and the Combat Power climb lines are in three clear stages, and that represents the three blower stages.  Have a look:



The neutral blower (the red line) is used in the initial climb stages at both military power and combat power.  They are used up to their critical altitudes.  The critical altitude of the engine in neutral blower is higher at combat power than it is at military power.  Once the critical altitude is reached, power begins to drop off.  That drop-off is represented by the first bend and the more horizontal portion of the red line.  Once it reaches the point where low-blower can develop maximum power, the blower is shifted from neutral to low (green line).  That shift is represented by the upward turn in the line (the point where the line turns from red to green).

It starts all over again.  Low blower (the green line) is used up to its critical altitude (represented by the bend in the green line).  At that point, power begins to drop off.  Once a point is reached where high blower can develop maximum power, low blower is shifted (where the green line meets the blue line) to high blower (the blue line).  

At Military Power, the shift from low to high occurs at about 18,000 feet.  At Combat Power, the shift occurs at about 20,000 feet.

Once the plane is in high blower, it continues to climb until its critical altitude is reached – about 21,000 feet according to the chart.  As you can see from the chart, once the blower is shifted to high, the military power line and the combat power line quickly converge – at about 20,000 feet.  

(Note:  critical altitudes for military power and for combat power in low and high blower are achieved at the same altitudes)

The entire Combat Power climb is pretty much a “full throttle climb.”  The Military power climb is not a “full throttle” climb until an altitude is reached where full throttle is necessary to develop military power.   That’s where the top and longest portion of the blue lines comes in.  

When the high-blower combat power critical altitude is reached, the throttle is as far forward as it will go.  That is the highest point where combat power can be maintained.  After that, combat power can no longer be maintained and power begins to drop.  And there is nothing the pilot can do about it.  Sooner or later, power drops off to the point where even full throttle will not maintain Military power.  

That’s where this chart is a little confusing.  The military power critical altitudes in low and high blower should be a little higher than the combat power critical altitudes.  That’s because you can maintain a lower power at higher altitude when you may not be able to maintain high power at that same altitude.  





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Hm, do you mean a power chart? Ram would be automatically taken into account for flight test data.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


No, I have the power charts for the R-2800-8, the engines used in the Hellcat.  I don’t think ram is taken into consideration.  These things were usually tested in chambers where atmospheric pressure could be altered to simulate a particular altitude.  No ram was possible in the chambers, so many engine power charts don’t take ram into consideration.  Some charts are “corrected” to take ram into consideration, but I don’t think mine are.  If mine do represent power with ram, then I’d have to say emphatically that there is no benefit to using low blower at sea-level.  Not only is there no benefit, it would be detrimental to performance.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2005, 08:58:25 PM by ShortyDoowap »

Offline ShortyDoowap

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2005, 09:10:50 PM »
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Originally posted by F4UDOA

1. What happens if you advance to full throttle below FTH? Will it overboost?



It depends.  

AFAIK, the Hellcat engine had automatic boost control.  On the Hellcat, you set the throttle to combat power setting.  At combat power, there really was no FTH.  It was FTH from the ground up.  The boost control made sure the plane’s supercharger didn’t overboost down low.  At critical altitude and above, the boost control didn’t do anything, because it took full throttle to achieve combat power at critical altitude, and above critical altitude, there was no way to achieve combat power, even at full throttle.

The achieve military power, you set the throttle to that position as well.  If you advance the throttle below FTH, then you would simply increase the engine power.  But the boost control made sure you didn’t boost it above combat power.

On planes that didn’t have that type of boost control, like early P-39s, it was, indeed, possible to over boost the engine.  On the ground, fire-walling the throttle would boost the engine past combat power MAP and damage could easily occur.

Offline justin_g

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2005, 11:25:40 PM »
"Full throttle height" (FTH) is an English term; it refers to the throttle valve in the intake, not the lever in the cockpit. FTH is reached when the throttle must be fully open to reach the desired boost(MAP), ie: Critical altitude.

Offline ShortyDoowap

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2005, 11:28:54 PM »
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Originally posted by justin_g
"Full throttle height" (FTH) is an English term; it refers to the throttle valve in the intake, not the lever in the cockpit. FTH is reached when the throttle must be fully open to reach the desired boost(MAP), ie: Critical altitude.


OK thanks.  That term was confusing because its not a common US term.

Offline justin_g

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2005, 01:10:42 AM »
Your assessment of the BuAer chart for the F6F-5 is incorrect re: blower gear in use.

In Combat power setting Neutral gear is not used.

On the speed chart; Low blower is used from sea level(critical altitude is 13,100ft) until 15,700ft  - when High blower is engaged, which reaches its critical altitude at 18,000ft.

This can be confirmed by the engine powers listed for Combat power:
2030hp@sea level -> 2110hp@13,100ft(Low blower)
1930hp@15,700ft -> 1940hp@18,000ft(High blower)

For Military power, only power at critical altitude is listed:
1960hp@3,400ft(Neutral blower)
1840hp@18,200ft(Low blower)
1670hp@23,400ft(High blower)

There is some confusion because the Combat power curve doesn't fall back to meet the Military curve at it's critical altitude. If you examine the F4U-1 chart found here you can see that neutral blower is not used a Combat power, but the curve falls back until it matches the Military power curve at it's critical altitude. The F4U-1D curves here show the use of Neutral blower with Combat power below 2000ft only.

The BuAer F6F-5 chart shows incorrect critical altitudes at Combat power(2000ft too low).

The only clue I see as to why is in the power charts: "Performance based on engine power determined in flight test as follows"

The engine powers listed for Combat power are most likely climb powers - the critical altitudes listed(13k,18k) are a match for those seen in F4U climb charts(same engine), while the Military and Normal power settings have the correct critical altitudes for level flight.

My theory is that the performance figures shown on the graphs were calculated - using the engine powers listed(which were obtained in seperate flight tests and somehow got mixed up) - hence the incorrect, lower critical altitudes shown for Combat power.

Offline gripen

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2005, 02:11:12 AM »
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Originally posted by justin_g
How can the F6F-5 have a higher FTH for Neutral blower than the F4U-1D, if the Hellcat has no ram air and yet the Corsair does? It doesn't follow.


If we assume same MAP, the engine stage (Neutral blower) FTHs for the AH F4U-1D and F6F-5 seem to be wrong. The F4U should have about 2-3k higher FTH for the neutral blower at given MAP than the F6F (or the altitude to switch auxilary stage on).

Charts here show logical FTHs (as an example chart in page 4).

gripen

Offline HoHun

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2005, 05:05:59 AM »
Hi Shorty,

>But frankly, this doesn’t make any sense.  It would be a very inefficient to fly the plane in this matter. Maybe it was a mis-speak, or an error.  

OK, I agree on that, let's stay with the normal sequence for our analysis. I didn't actually think the quote changed the order of gears, just the order of names given for them :-/

>The “full throttle” term is mucking things up at this point and perhaps it’s a point of confusion..  

Argh, it was! Thanks to Justin for the clarification :-)

>No, neutral blower is used in the combat power climb.  Both the Military Power and the Combat Power climb lines are in three clear stages, and that represents the three blower stages.  Have a look:



Good idea to mark it in the chart! The colours shows exactly what I've been trying to explain. I believe that there is no doubt about the MIL power being used exactly as you have marked them.

I'm not sure about Combat Power use, though. The marking you provided is the same as I tried to line out in my "new" explanation, here is my "old" explanation (which might be more accurate after all):



>(Note:  critical altitudes for military power and for combat power in low and high blower are achieved at the same altitudes)

That would be somewhat unusual if you keep rpm constant between those settings, as it seems to be the case for the R-2800. The blue lines I have added to the chart are lines of constant rpm, maximum boost at the three supercharger gear changes. Full Throttle Height of each gear should normally be a point on this chart, the further down/to the right the higher the boost.

No matter which of the two sequences we consider correct, this criterium is not met by the BuAer chart :-(

You can see from the chart that if the lowest "step" at Combat Power would be neutral gear, it would operate far above the full throttle height one should expect from it, which is the reason I'm preferring the "old" explanation at the moment.

>No, I have the power charts for the R-2800-8, the engines used in the Hellcat.  

I agree that these would not include ram. (British power charts sometimes do, but as far as I know US charts don't.)

>If mine do represent power with ram, then I’d have to say emphatically that there is no benefit to using low blower at sea-level.  Not only is there no benefit, it would be detrimental to performance.

Hm, that was a terminology misunderstanding anyway. However, does the chart have power settings for water injection, too? At a higher power, full throttle height might drop below sea level, making it unavailable. That's what I tried to point out with my blue lines in that graph above :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline ShortyDoowap

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2005, 08:16:19 AM »
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Originally posted by justin_g
Your assessment of the BuAer chart for the F6F-5 is incorrect re: blower gear in use.

In Combat power setting Neutral gear is not used.


Yes, it is.

If neutral blower was not used, there would have been only two stages to the climb line.  




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On the speed chart; Low blower is used from sea level(critical altitude is 13,100ft) until 15,700ft  - when High blower is engaged, which reaches its critical altitude at 18,000ft.

This can be confirmed by the engine powers listed for Combat power:
2030hp@sea level -> 2110hp@13,100ft(Low blower)
1930hp@15,700ft -> 1940hp@18,000ft(High blower)

For Military power, only power at critical altitude is listed:
1960hp@3,400ft(Neutral blower)
1840hp@18,200ft(Low blower)
1670hp@23,400ft(High blower)

There is some confusion because the Combat power curve doesn't fall back to meet the Military curve at it's critical altitude. If you examine the F4U-1 chart found here you can see that neutral blower is not used a Combat power, but the curve falls back until it matches the Military power curve at it's critical altitude. The F4U-1D curves here show the use of Neutral blower with Combat power below 2000ft only.

The BuAer F6F-5 chart shows incorrect critical altitudes at Combat power(2000ft too low).

The only clue I see as to why is in the power charts: "Performance based on engine power determined in flight test as follows"

The engine powers listed for Combat power are most likely climb powers - the critical altitudes listed(13k,18k) are a match for those seen in F4U climb charts(same engine), while the Military and Normal power settings have the correct critical altitudes for level flight.

My theory is that the performance figures shown on the graphs were calculated - using the engine powers listed(which were obtained in seperate flight tests and somehow got mixed up) - hence the incorrect, lower critical altitudes shown for Combat power. [/B]


Sorry, you are simply wrong on this.  I’ll show you in a new chart.

Offline ShortyDoowap

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2005, 08:44:52 AM »
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Originally posted by HoHun

(Image removed from quote.)

Henning (HoHun) [/B]


HoHun, you are extending the wrong lines.  That’s throwing things off.  On the speed chart and the climb chart you need to extend the more vertical portions of the lines, not the more horizontal portions.

The vertical portions represent climb at below the critical altitude of that blower stage – when the engine is generating rated power in that blower stage.  The horizontal portion shows the climb above the critical altitude of that blower stage – when power has begun to drop off.  

Here’s how it should look:



Here are the engine charts for the R-2800-8 engine:





Even though these are military power charts, they illustrate the point nicely.  Maximum power is achieved in neutral blower at sea level up to critical altitude – 2,000 hp.

The most power that can be achieve at sea level at low blower is 1,800 hp.

The maximum power that can be achieved at sea level in high blower is 1,650 hp.

You simply cannot get better performance at sea level in low blower than you can in neutral blower.  The point where low blower become more effective than neutral is the altitude where neutral blower can no longer even maintain 1,800 hp.  That point is above the critical altitude, where power begins to fall off.  Once it falls of to 1,800 hp, the supercharger is shifted from neutral to low where low can maintain 1,800 hp up to its critical altitude.  

In those BuAer climb charts, neutral blower is absolutely used in both the military power and combat power climbs.

Offline ShortyDoowap

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2005, 10:54:53 AM »
BTW, my comments above are with respect to the BuAer Hellcat charts only.

I examined the F4U-1 chart, and the combat power climb does not use neutral blower, it used low from sea-level on up.  That is not the case with the Hellcat chart, which shows neutral blower in the initial stage of the climb.

I don't have R-2800-10 engine power charts.  At least I don't think so.  I'll check and see.  

I'm sure is has something to do with ram.  Low blower was probbaly able to achieve at-least equal power down low using ram as neutral blower was.  As I stated previously, that's the only way using low blower down low would make any sense.

To me, the F4U-1 charts are more confusing than the Hellcat charts.  The Hellcat used all blower stages.  So did the -1D Corsair.  The -1 Corsair did not.  But we can only speculate as to why.  Ram and water injection, which the -1D had, and the -1 did not likely have a lot to do with it - even thought he -1 chart shows water useage.   Hmmmm.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2005, 11:10:07 AM by ShortyDoowap »

Offline justin_g

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2005, 12:36:35 PM »
Consider this. You have marked the BuAer graph as using Neutral blower with Combat power up to a critical altitude of 10,000ft when climbing.

According to the R2800-10 charts you have provided - at 10,000ft and 2700RPM - Neutral blower is only capable of 34" MAP and just under 1500hp. MAP has fallen well below the required 60" for Combat power because this altitude is far above the critical altitude of Neutral blower!

At the same altitude in Low blower, output is 1600hp with only Normal power rating(2550RPM & 49.5" MAP*). At Military power(2700RPM & 53" MAP*) the output would be about 1750hp. Combat power(2700RPM & 60" MAP*) would yield around 2000hp. The BuAer document tells us that Combat power produces something between 2030-2110hp at this altitude.

At altitudes below 2000ft or so, Neutral blower would certainly make more power than Low blower - but for reasons unknown, this was not used for the graphs in the F6F-5 document.

* power settings come from SEFC at http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/More_F6F_Stuff.html

Offline HoHun

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2005, 12:40:29 PM »
Hi Shorty,

>HoHun, you are extending the wrong lines.  

Hm, actually my extensions ask a different question than your extensions :-)

Your chart asks "What if I use each supercharger below its full throttle height at the same boost as before?"

(This is useful for sorting out the question of the supercharger sequence. I now recognize that I had confused "red" and "green" as depicted in your first chart! :-)

My chart asks "What if I use each supercharger gear with increased boost?"

That's useful for sorting out the Combat Power case. You can't get above the blue line for each supercharger gear because the supercharger doesn't provide enough air for that. How far to the right you can slide on that graph depends on the amount of boost you allow.



(The image shows up immediately if you remove the URL tags, by the way.)

Your lines are lines for constant boost, with the automatic boost regulator throttling down as required.

My lines are lines for fully-open throttle, with supercharger capacity limiting the power.

>Here are the engine charts for the R-2800-8 engine:

Thanks, that's great stuff! :-) I'll try to generate some generic speed charts from that one. The chart only goes up to MIL power, though - do you also have the Specific Engine Flight Chart mentioned on the bottom of the diagram? These usually include the take-off and emergency power limits as well. (The BuAer chart unfortunately does not provide boost levels.)

>In those BuAer climb charts, neutral blower is absolutely used in both the military power and combat power climbs.

Hm, I think Justin is right here because the supercharger would not be able to provide enough air in neutral gear at combat power. One could say that it's not possible to cross the blue line without changing supercharger gears.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline justin_g

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2005, 01:00:34 PM »
Link to a SEFC is in my post above, it's listed as "F6F Flight Operation Instruction Chart". Has a weird rating for Military power/High blower though...

Offline HoHun

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2005, 02:27:07 PM »
Hi Justin,

>Link to a SEFC is in my post above, it's listed as "F6F Flight Operation Instruction Chart". Has a weird rating for Military power/High blower though...

Thanks a lot! :-)

After a preliminary analysis of the power data provided by Shorty, I'm pretty certain that the weird rating you pointed out was in fact used for the BuAer F6F-5.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline HoHun

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Reason for F6F-5 speed discrepancy?
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2005, 02:45:46 PM »
Hi again,

>After a preliminary analysis of the power data provided by Shorty, I'm pretty certain that the weird rating you pointed out was in fact used for the BuAer F6F-5.

Disregard that, I just found a mistake in my analysis.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)