Author Topic: Brit Question ? (Read 697 times)

Gunslinger · « **on:** December 07, 2005, 06:20:55 PM »

Ok so I was reading this:

Quote

A football fan in the UK has been told that a St. Georges flag with the words "Born in England Live in England Die in England" is racist and will not be allowed at future games, according to the Manchester Evening News.

The manager of the Brentford football club, Martin Allen, called the flag racially offensive to the several black players in his club.

"It made it a difficult afternoon," Allen said. "If we see it again at our ground I will find the person responsible and burn it in front of him. There is no room for it in society or in football."

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/men/news/s/190/190116_racism_row_over_fans_flag.html

SO I'm really curious what is racist about this flag:

Born in England Live in England Die in England"

Keep in mind I'm not trolling here I'm just ignorant of the history or of the situation.

ravells · « **Reply #1 on:** December 07, 2005, 06:30:38 PM »

OK, I'm English and not white so I feel somewhat qualified to answer.

For many years the flag of St George has been hijacked by the far right ( for which read racist parties who wanted to boot people like me out of the UK)...until about 4 years ago at the football (soccer to you) world cup when it was regained by normal people and flying everywhere for the right reasons.

The words 'Born in England' on the offending flag you mention imply that people who are not born in England (like me) are somehow not English. I think that was the intention of the person who had the flag. I consider myself English (although my skin is brown) and I would gladly and proudly fight and die for this, my country. The subtext of the message to me is that only if you are born here can you be British (or English if you like). I agree with Martin Allen, there is no room for people who want to subvert my country's flag to their racist ends.

Ravs

Gunslinger · « **Reply #2 on:** December 07, 2005, 06:43:02 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by ravells
OK, I'm English and not white so I feel somewhat qualified to answer.

For many years the flag of St George has been hijacked by the far right ( for which read racist parties who wanted to boot people like me out of the UK)...until about 4 years ago at the football (soccer to you) world cup when it was regained by normal people and flying everywhere for the right reasons.

The words 'Born in England' on the offending flag you mention imply that people who are not born in England (like me) are somehow not English. I think that was the intention of the person who had the flag. I consider myself English (although my skin is brown) and I would gladly and proudly fight and die for this, my country. The subtext of the message to me is that only if you are born here can you be British (or English if you like). I agree with Martin Allen, there is no room for people who want to subvert my country's flag to their racist ends.

Ravs

Thanks Rav......But do I understand you correctly when you say the flag itself is OK but not the writing on it?

(wich I can understand were your coming from) Over here it's kinda that way with the Confederate flag. Many fly it proudly to display their southern heritage and roots who are not at all racist, But the flag has been come to be an example of the roots of slavery and prejudice.

ravells · « **Reply #3 on:** December 07, 2005, 06:50:28 PM »

Yes! it was an underhanded way of saying (to me) if you are not born here you have no place being here.

But it's more complicated than that, the cross of St George until very recently has been the province of quite racist people and (ironically) it has been football which has reversed that.

You have to have lived here to understand the nuances, but I think that Martin Allen called it right on this occasion.

Ravs

Gunslinger · « **Reply #4 on:** December 07, 2005, 07:03:50 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by ravells
Yes! it was an underhanded way of saying (to me) if you are not born here you have no place being here.

But it's more complicated than that, the cross of St George until very recently has been the province of quite racist people and (ironically) it has been football which has reversed that.

You have to have lived here to understand the nuances, but I think that Martin Allen called it right on this occasion.

Ravs

Thanks!

Dago · « **Reply #5 on:** December 07, 2005, 07:18:59 PM »

Because someone else was born elsewhere, a person cant be proud of being born English?

dago

Skilless · « **Reply #6 on:** December 07, 2005, 08:24:27 PM »

Kind of a reversal of Native Americans taking offense to the "tomahawk Chop".

Swoop · « **Reply #7 on:** December 07, 2005, 08:45:25 PM »

This is nuts.

Frankly, saying that the English flag and the words 'born in England' is racist is absolute bollocks.

If you're English then no matter where you were born it's your flag to.

And what about anyone non-caucasian who was born in England? I know plenty and count many as friends. The comment 'born in England' applies to them as well, right? Therefore how can it be a racist comment?

Sure, ok, the flag was and is used as the main symbol certain nationalist organisations but likening it to the Confederate flag is daft, it's the flag of a country, it's flown over Buckingham palace and if any Euro-Liberal-politcally-correct numbnuts tries to tell me I can't fly my country's flag cos it's racist (apparently) then he's gonna get a mouthful of abuse and told to sod off back to Brussels.

I was born in England and I'm proud to be British, does that make me a racist?

[imagine the old rolleyes smilie]

Ripsnort · « **Reply #8 on:** December 07, 2005, 08:56:26 PM »

The PC cops RULE the world, be verrrrry careful....

Gunslinger · « **Reply #9 on:** December 07, 2005, 08:57:25 PM »

Swoop my comparison was just based on my ignorance and the fact that one symbol of good meaning can be hijacked to mean another.

Furball · « **Reply #10 on:** December 08, 2005, 06:23:37 AM »

I think it is absolute BS and that the person should be able to take pride in the fact that they were born, live in and will die in this country.

The Scottish have a national identity created for them which they take pride in, the Welsh have a national identity which they take pride in, Irish = pride, English pride = racist.

PC BS

Furball · « **Reply #11 on:** December 08, 2005, 06:43:16 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by ravells
Yes! it was an underhanded way of saying (to me) if you are not born here you have no place being here.

So if you were an American (but not born there) would you cry about the Bruce Springsteen album 'Born in the USA'?

The whole situation is just ridiculous.

deSelys · « **Reply #12 on:** December 08, 2005, 07:23:21 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Swoop
T...if any Euro-Liberal-politcally-correct numbnuts tries to tell me I can't fly my country's flag cos it's racist (apparently) then he's gonna get a mouthful of abuse and told to sod off back to Brussels...

Are you insinuating that people living in Brussels are numbnuts, mister?

Saintaw · « **Reply #13 on:** December 08, 2005, 07:39:24 AM »

He is, and I second that

PS: You didn't live in Brussels when we met... did you move?

lazs2 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 08, 2005, 08:27:07 AM »

Swoop seems to have explained it... to me anyway... How can it be racist if it applies to all races equally? A black man born in england could use that flag and motto just as easily.

PC crap looks like to me.

lazs