Author Topic: Bombs/rockets vs GV's  (Read 4199 times)

Offline Bodhi

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Bombs/rockets vs GV's
« Reply #150 on: December 14, 2005, 10:23:24 PM »
Urchin,  I am guessing that at 50 yards the damage would be limited to shrapnel and concussion.  Again, thats a guess.
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Offline Morpheus

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Bombs/rockets vs GV's
« Reply #151 on: December 14, 2005, 10:26:34 PM »
Rockets, needed to hit armor to cause any noticeable damage.

Its said (and  you can google 5 inch hvar) that the 5 inch hvar's had an effective blast radious of 60 ft that was capable of sending shrapnel and debris through the air.  This of course would not be effective against armor. Speed on the new 5'' hvars in ww2 was 950mph compared to 800mph of the smaller 3.5 inch hvar. Take a 60lb (or 140lbs total of the entire rocket) warhead (which is what the 5 inch hvar was) and hurl it through the air at 950 mph. (this was the velocity recorded with the updated rocket motor designed for the 5 inch hvar) When it hits armor its going to do damage. How much damage depends on a great many variables naturally. AoA, where the rocket impacted, the quality or lack there of in the cast steel armor just to name a few.

There was a competition by the U.S. either in the very late war years or immediately after with the Hvar rockets by U.S. Airmen. The winner managed to put 10 rockets into a 10' radius. Now that's of course in ideal conditions with nothing shooting back at you. I read this in an old magazine atricle a long time ago, and managed to see it linked on a ww2 a/c forum somewhere not too long ago either. I would like very much, and will try to find it again.
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Offline Mr No Name

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Bombs/rockets vs GV's
« Reply #152 on: December 15, 2005, 12:57:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus
Like I said, you where an arrogant an ass, hole under wonton and you still are in the game. You are no different under bruno. The fact that you twist words around and cherry pick your own statistics off the web doesnt make you right.

Btw, you can stop quoting yourself. I know what you wrote. You still have offered nothing as to the effects of bombs and or rockets on armor. And probably will not. Like I said, Im done talking about this subject with you. It wasnt just me who is saying you're wrong for the crap you are throwing out. Which is all I will have to say to you from this point on while you continue to post you nonsense.


Welllllllllllllllll WOW!  while I TOTALLY agree with your take on this subject I am wondering how the hell that got past the censors and moderators?!?

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Offline Bodhi

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Bombs/rockets vs GV's
« Reply #153 on: December 15, 2005, 12:58:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mr No Name
Welllllllllllllllll WOW!  while I TOTALLY agree with your take on this subject I am wondering how the hell that got past the censors and moderators?!?

LMAO I got PNG status for complaining about service from HTC!



because you are an stunninghunk and they don't like you.
I regret doing business with TD Computer Systems.

Offline Morpheus

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Bombs/rockets vs GV's
« Reply #154 on: December 15, 2005, 12:59:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mr No Name
Welllllllllllllllll WOW!  while I TOTALLY agree with your take on this subject I am wondering how the hell that got past the censors and moderators?!?

LMAO I got PNG status for complaining about service from HTC!



yet another one of the countless shade accounts we have here. :aok
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Offline hubsonfire

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Bombs/rockets vs GV's
« Reply #155 on: December 15, 2005, 01:10:03 AM »
I can't recall with any certainty which thread it was in (queue guppy), but there was a discussion of the US and RAF rockets some time ago on this BBs. Was dealing with either hurricane or typhoon weaponry, but there was either an article, or link to an article, regarding the weaponry, and what it was designed to do. IIRC, some of the RAF rockets were specifically designed for the anti-armor role. I can't say whether it was all, or some, but merely that I believe they had specialized weapons suited only for the task of tank busting.

If anyone remembers this discussion, or has any info on it, please slap it up.
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Offline Morpheus

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Bombs/rockets vs GV's
« Reply #156 on: December 15, 2005, 01:20:24 AM »
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Offline ramzey

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Bombs/rockets vs GV's
« Reply #157 on: December 15, 2005, 03:03:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hubsonfire
I can't recall with any certainty which thread it was in (queue guppy), but there was a discussion of the US and RAF rockets some time ago on this BBs. Was dealing with either hurricane or typhoon weaponry, but there was either an article, or link to an article, regarding the weaponry, and what it was designed to do. IIRC, some of the RAF rockets were specifically designed for the anti-armor role. I can't say whether it was all, or some, but merely that I believe they had specialized weapons suited only for the task of tank busting.

If anyone remembers this discussion, or has any info on it, please slap it up.


anty ship RP
hvars equiped planes carry HE warehead

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/about702-0-asc-80.html

read what Tony Williams wrote

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Offline Morpheus

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Bombs/rockets vs GV's
« Reply #158 on: December 15, 2005, 03:58:53 AM »
Quote
BK's what you try to prove now? cuz im lost


What are you talking about? And what do the Bk's have to do with anything?
I've read through Williams' website many times. It has alot of useful information on cannons and such. Did you read what I wrote about the hvar rockets and the efectiveness on armor? I said several posts back that they needed to directly impact a tank to cause any significant damage.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2005, 04:03:40 AM by Morpheus »
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Offline frank3

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Bombs/rockets vs GV's
« Reply #159 on: December 15, 2005, 07:35:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
How about a rocket hitting a yard away?


I recently read a great article about rocket-firing Typhoons during the D-Day landings, decribing the effects of rockets on enemy tanks.

They said the rockets very VERY inaccurate, giving an estimate accuracy of 150 yards from the target.
It also said the hit impact was 2% for 8 rockets (all the Typhoon could carry)

But when it did it! It was amazing what it could do...


The best effect the rockets had, was degrading enemy morale! The German tank crews were so frightened by the rocket-firing aircraft, that some (inexperienced) crews would abandon their tanks!

It did say that you'd need to land the rocket within 25 yards of the target to do any serious damage though (the explosive charge was only 16lbs)

Offline hubsonfire

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Bombs/rockets vs GV's
« Reply #160 on: December 15, 2005, 10:19:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ramzey
anty ship RP
hvars equiped planes carry HE warehead

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/about702-0-asc-80.html

read what Tony Williams wrote

BK's what you try to prove now? cuz im lost


I was just reminded of that prior post. There was discussion of the 2 rocket types, warhead weight, effectiveness against particular types of targets, etc. I didn't think the US rockets would be effective against hardtargets, not being shaped charges or whatever, but I'd seen an interview where a naval pilot said the 5" HVAR would cut through anything you could manage to hit.
mook
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Offline WarLover

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« Reply #161 on: January 05, 2006, 03:30:04 PM »
As a former infantry officer, I can make some comments based on training and first hand experience:

1) .303's would have minimal impact on anything but the lightest armored vehicles. I have personally seen quarter inch aluminum armor on a M113 hull be penetrated but still capture the 7.62mm round from an M60 machinegun not letting it completely through. Fired from above into open toped halftracks would of course wound or kill the crew.

2) .50's were originally designed during the first world war as anti-armor weapons against lightly armored vehicle of the period (for Geneva Convention reasons it is still classified to this day as an anti-vehicular weapon not for use against dismounted troops) and I have personally seen a .50 API round go completely through a modern armored personnel carrier hull but bounce off a derelict tank turret.

3) WWII 20mm and 30 mm cannons were designed to do damage from their explosive charge and not kinetic energy like the machineguns cited above. They would damage vision blocks and could damage running gear on a tank but probably not penetrate the armor of the hull or turret. Today's 30mm cannon in the A-10 is designed to use both HE and kinetic energy depleted uranium armor piercing rounds. I have seen films of the gun being tested back in the early '70s where the uranium round was fired into the top of an M48 tank laid on its side. The round went completely through the top and bottom armor as well as a 10 foot dirt berm erect behind the tank. (Awsome fire power but not available during WWII).

4) While training in the use of explosives, we were taught how to use relatively small charges (40 pounds and under) to defeat Soviet armor. 40 pound shaped charges were most effective  in actually penetrating all but the thickest frontal armor. Hovever, a 25 pound satchel charge placed against the tank would disable the turret from traversing...not blow it off. Some of these devices also used small amounts of fuel to set fire to the wiring in the engine comparments. A large external fuel can or drum could easily set fire to a modern tank's wiring in the engine compartment. In fact, the Soviets mounted two 55 gallon drums on the rear deck some of their tanks but rigged them to drop off before going into combat to avoid the huge risk of them being ignited.

5) The artillery uses a round for the 105mm howitzers called HEAP-T (high explosive armor piercing tracer) which fires about ten pounds of HE agains the side of a tank and detonates it. Its designed to kill or disable the crew through concussion (rings the tank like a bell) or spalling (flaking pices of the armor off the internal wall of the tank like shrapnel or sending equipment flying across the internal space. These were not available during WWII but the effect is worth noting.

6) During the first Gulf War, I heard stories, supported by gun camera films, of  500 lb GP bombs with laser designator kits being used to kill Iragi tanks because they were cheaper than Maverick missles (less than $100,000 vs. $250,000 or more was cited). Turrets were seperated from hulls and I believe this would have killed both tanks and crews. Here again the level of accuracy mentioned was not achievable in WWII but the effect is well worth noting.

Based on the points outlined above, I'd say that WWII machine guns and cannons would NOT be effective against a buttoned up Tiger. Aerial rockets, which have warheads not much bigger than a bazooka round probably would damage the running gear but might bounce off or detonate without effect against the more heavily armored areas. The larger HVAR rockets could have effects similar to the HEAP-T round I mentioned above. A direct hit with a 500 or 1000 pound GP bomb would probably kill the Tiger. Near misses with bombs depending, on the distance from the Tiger, would have varying degrees of impact on the vehicle's combat effectiveness. Close in detonations would probably damage running gear, disable turrets, concuss but not necessarily kill the crew and even overturn the Tiger.

I don't think that this settles the debate by any means but it is more annecdotal information for the grinder.

Offline Brenjen

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my point exactly
« Reply #162 on: February 02, 2006, 01:33:44 PM »
Quote
During the first Gulf War, I heard stories, supported by gun camera films, of 500 lb GP bombs with laser designator kits being used to kill Iragi tanks because they were cheaper than Maverick missles (less than $100,000 vs. $250,000 or more was cited). Turrets were seperated from hulls and I believe this would have killed both tanks and crews. Here again the level of accuracy mentioned was not achievable in WWII but the effect is well worth noting.


 That was going to be my point exactly. Those 500 pound bombs were simply high explosives, with nearly if not exactly, the same explosive effect. Those fairly modern heavily armoured MBT's were destroyed with nothing more than high explosives. A hit is a hit is a hit - whether it's a laser guided hit....or a dumb bomb hit. As far as documentation from WWII, all I can find are sketchy accounts. As far as AH gv's I have been on the bombing end & gv end of it, I have dropped three 4,000 pounders on a tiger with direct hit crater surrounding it with no effect (can't say he had supplies-no one is that quick on the draw) & then I hit a tiger with a 1,000 pounder from a dive bombing 38 & killed it. I have been killed with IL-2 guns in a tiger & been killed by "one ping" hits from panzers that I was hammering repeatedly from 800 out (hit sprites & richochets). I have bounced 88's off of every gv in the game from as close as 200. Inconsistent is all I can say it is. Rubber bullets - my connection - their connection w/e the cause it happens.

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Offline Mitchell

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Bombs/rockets vs GV's
« Reply #163 on: February 03, 2006, 08:38:52 AM »
Not to long ago on the center island of Ozkansas I was flying a spitfire w/ a 500lb bomb incase I came across a flak or panzer before I met an enemy plane
When I got over an enemy Vehicle base I heard a bunch of guys talking about a tiger that was giving them trouble so I nosed down and droped it right on his head. I didn't expect to kill him, or even disable him but to my amazment I got the kill message.

BTW, I have also killed tigers with HVARs and 40mm from Hurr IID:D

Offline Stoney74

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Dusting this one off
« Reply #164 on: June 16, 2006, 01:09:17 AM »
Got here a little late to be involved in this one when it was hot, but just in case anyone is still interested...

I've personally watched over 1000 close air support attacks with my former employer.  All were in a training environment, and included just about every type of conventional ordnance in the inventory.

1.  On a hot summer day in Camp Lejeune, NC, I saw an M-60 tank hulk hit directly in the turret with an 155mm howitzer round (90+lbs of HE plus whatever kinetic energy).  The turret flipped end over end up about 50 feet in the air and came back down.  I have no idea about the integrity of the assembly before the hit.

2.  I've watched countless number of .50 cal and 20mm ammo ricochet all over the place when hitting a sloped section of tank armor.  I've seen the 20mm get good effects on tracks, suspension components, etc.  Soft vehicles would be swiss cheese.

3.  I saw a 500lb GP bomb direct hit an M-60 hulk at 29 Palms.  Entire hulk disintegrated, leaving small chunks of the undercarriage laying around.  Turret was in very small pieces.  Barrel detached from turret laying 30 feet away.

4.  Saw 2 1000 lb bombs land about 250 meters away from a group of about 40 Marines (standing) and a couple of Humvees in the open (bad drop).  No injuries at all, and none of the vehicles caught any shrapnel.  Go figure...

I think mobility kills would be extremely common when bombs landed within 25-50 meters.  Crews could possibly walk away, with the mother of all headaches, and blasted eardrums.  Direct hits would be catestrophic kills, no question.

With respect to fuel drums burning...There was an M1A1 in Iraq that got an RPG in a fuel bladder strapped above the power pack.  The whole back end of the tank burned out, and the vehicle was a loss.  Crew got out just fine, but the vehicle was wrecked.