Author Topic: Copilot taking over after headshot (Read 2461 times)

frank3 · « **on:** December 12, 2005, 10:54:16 AM »

I know this request has been asked before, but Im not hearing quite so much about it nowadays, so I'll give it another shot

What about the co-pilot in bombers (or even the Mosquito?) take over the controls after the captain has been killed?

IMO this would be quite easy to model, and highly realistic

Karnak · « **Reply #1 on:** December 12, 2005, 11:04:57 AM »

The Mosquito doesn't have a copilot. It has a navigator's position with no duplication of the controls. It would be nearly impossible for the navigator to do anything other than bail out if the pilot were killed, and bailing would likely be extremely difficult.

In a Lancaster it would depend on what the pilot did after being killed. If he slumped forward on the controls and put it into a dive it is unlikely the engineer could recover the aircraft. If the aircraft remained in more or less level flight the engineer could probably take over.

frank3 · « **Reply #2 on:** December 12, 2005, 11:11:19 AM »

Well in AH, we could modell it so that the pilot would be killed and would fall out of his chair so the navigator/engineer/copilot could take over easily

I've even heard stories of Ju-88 pilots being killed or wounded, with the bombardeer landing the aircraft safely.
Im not sure about allied crews, but the Luftwaffe aircrew all received basic flight training (from the pilot himself)

Karnak · « **Reply #3 on:** December 12, 2005, 11:37:09 AM »

Heh. I'm not sure you realize how small the Mossie's cockpit was. Trust me on this, it really wouldn't work.

Scherf · « **Reply #4 on:** December 12, 2005, 12:32:39 PM »

Hi Both:

Not sure this is should be a coading priority, but in any case ...

I do actually know of one case in which a Mossie returned under the control of the navigator, after the pilot had died. Rather tragic tale of a P.R. crew on the last sortie of their tour near the end of the war (30 April, 1945 as a matter of fact).

MM333, a PR. XVI, was hit by small-arms fire during a low pass over Rhodes, and the pilot, Ron Watson, was struck in the abdomen. He realised he was hit, and asked the Nav, "Kev" Kevan, to "take her home and prang her." (Going from memory on the quote.) Watson slipped in and out of consciousness on the return journey and eventually died.

The nav managed to fly to Lydda, now apparently Ben-Gurion airport, and belly-land the aircraft. He was unable to reach all the controls, as some were on the far (left-hand) side of the cockpit. One source says the controls in question were the flaps and undercarriage, but not having a diagram in front of me I can't swear to it.

The aircraft touched down but bounced, going off the end of the runway. However Kevan escaped from the wreck unharmed, with pictures intact.

There's also a couple of well-known episodes of Navs briefly taking over control after their pilot had been blinded, generally by exploding targets.

Like I say though, not sure HT should make this a priority.

Karnak · « **Reply #5 on:** December 12, 2005, 01:04:34 PM »

Scherf,

Yes, I am aware of those incidents. They are different though from having an suddenly dead pilot in the middle of combat manuevering. In that circumstance I doubt very much that the navigator could take over at all, much less with near unimpeded efficiency as in a B-17 or B-24.

Scherf · « **Reply #6 on:** December 12, 2005, 02:36:35 PM »

Agreed.

Krusty · « **Reply #7 on:** December 12, 2005, 03:04:47 PM »

Agreed, but for heavy bombers with pilots and copilots, or crews with somebody that could take over, I think the following would work for:

B17
B24
B26
Lancaster (engineer or somebody might be able to take over)
Ki67 (only 1 pilot I think, but plenty of crew right around him)
Ju88 (ditto)

I think that covers most that this would apply to.

frank3 · « **Reply #8 on:** December 12, 2005, 03:15:27 PM »

Don't forget about the C-47

Krusty · « **Reply #9 on:** December 12, 2005, 03:16:43 PM »

Well, a c47's just dead anyways

Rarely would you get a PW in it, you'd just die.

Raptor · « **Reply #10 on:** December 12, 2005, 09:44:41 PM »

same logic applies to the mossie then. A bullet hits the moss in AH, it catches fire. Only way to prevent this is by putting the pilot infront of the bullet; but if the pilot bleeds on the moss, it will catch fire just the same.

Karnak · « **Reply #11 on:** December 12, 2005, 09:46:19 PM »

The Ki-67 has a copilot with full control duplication.

The Lancaster's engineer was supposed to take over if possible. (Saburo Sakai described a G4M returning from a raid on Port Moresby and flying very erratically as it did. When they got back they all went over to find out why after it had landed. As it happened it was shot to hell and he said there was blood running out of the bullet holes in it. Inside only the engineer and pilot were still alive and the pilot was so badly wounded the engineer had thought him dead as he struggled to fly the bomber home. The pilot only regained conciousness just in time to land it.)

The Ju88A-4 seems to have a navigator right at hand, like the Mossie, but with a spacious cockpit to work with, unlike the Mossie.

Gato · « **Reply #12 on:** December 13, 2005, 02:49:34 PM »

There is another option to think about. When you have another person as a gunner, why not let them take control of the buffs? I believe that would only take a small amount coding to make work. IF the pilot doesn't have a "person" as gunner, then they would just be out of luck.

Any thoughts on this??

By the way, why can't we have more than 1 gunner in formation buffs anyway? Why not the pilot and up to at least 3 other people? THis wouldn't make the buffs uber, but better.

frank3 · « **Reply #13 on:** December 14, 2005, 08:23:12 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Gato
There is another option to think about. When you have another person as a gunner, why not let them take control of the buffs? I believe that would only take a small amount coding to make work. IF the pilot doesn't have a "person" as gunner, then they would just be out of luck.

Any thoughts on this??

I must disagree, gunners could never take over the controls. Even if they DID menage to get to the cocpit in time (highly unlikely) they wouldn't be able to fly the plane.

Quote

By the way, why can't we have more than 1 gunner in formation buffs anyway? Why not the pilot and up to at least 3 other people? THis wouldn't make the buffs uber, but better. [/B]

Please stay on topic

Gato · « **Reply #14 on:** December 14, 2005, 12:30:41 PM »

Frank, All I was getting at was that if you have a person "riding" along as a gunner, then why couldn't they be the co-pilot? As it is the pilot is also the gunner and bombardier AND can jump from plane to plane to plane. That would never happen, it's impossible.