Author Topic: Justifying flying for LW (Read 2760 times)

lazs · « **Reply #15 on:** January 20, 2001, 10:38:00 AM »

st... I actually like your attitude. Most of the pansies that fly the boring "dreary side" trash are far too sensitive and PC... I mean really.... Are you big bad black hatted nazi's or... are you just wife beating , crossdressing sissy? I am sick of all this "dark side" and "bad guys" and bluff and bluster one moment and then .... "please don't hurt my feelings cause I'm soooo sensitive" crap the next. Sheesh... I'm allways afraid the bad guys are gonna cry!

I was a bad guy... I say...If your gonna be one be a good one.
lazs

Kratzer · « **Reply #16 on:** January 20, 2001, 11:47:00 AM »

You know, this touches on something that I have been thinking about lately. I don't know how may of you have seen Day of Defeat, but I got involved with that to do a website for their campaign, and have been playing the game off and on for the past week. So I'll get to the point already.

The attitude of the average player in there regarding German soldiers and the Nazis is absolutely astounding to me. I am used to the players in AH - who are by and large older, interested in history, better informed, etc. I had either forgotten or never full realized the ignorance and tolerance that a great number of people have about the second world war, and the activities (activities?) of the nazis. Most know only that which they saw in Saving Private Ryan (they all call P51s 'tank busters'), and foster the idea that all Germans were nazis.

There are a LOT of players of that game, average age I would put at 16, who have in-game names like 'Hitler' or 'Jew Hater'... If you ask them WHY they would play with such a name, they almost invariably reply "Because, I'm playing a Nazi!" The concept that the average German soldier was not a nazi, and was there because he was conscripted, or 'doing his duty' to his country, and therefore had much, much more in common with the GI in the other trench than with Hitler is almost unthinkable to them... they can't put the two together.

The first thing that is mildly disturbing is the lack of knowledge of events that shaped the entire century.

The second is this casualness and intrigue there seems to be (developed from point one) with playing at being a nazi. With some very, very rare exceptions, any LW players in this and other flight games I've played have gone to enormous lengths to ensure it well known that they are NOT representing the nazis, but rather understand the sacrifice and bravery of the average serviceman on both sides. I guess I'm spoiled into thinking that the average intelligence in the world is reflected in AH.

Kudos to you guys, I guess... I'm not sure what point I'm making... except that I found that disturbing.

------------------
Kratzer
Geschwader Kommodore
LuftJägerKorps

[This message has been edited by Kratzer (edited 01-20-2001).]

Fury · « **Reply #17 on:** January 20, 2001, 11:50:00 AM »

I fly planes I like, and somethimes fly planes just for a change. Some of these planes have numbers like 109, 190 and 88 attached to them.

Fury

Fariz · « **Reply #18 on:** January 20, 2001, 12:24:00 PM »

AH is a game -- fly whatever you want and do not feel blame.

Cobra · « **Reply #19 on:** January 20, 2001, 12:42:00 PM »

I thought it was because StSanta thinks he looks snappy in those high leather boots!

Cobra

Animal · « **Reply #20 on:** January 20, 2001, 12:46:00 PM »

I am an allied pilot but for just one reason -- the P-38L. I am VERY sure that if the P38 would have been built by the LW these guys would love it. Its a good plane at everything but the best at NOTHING. Its a beautiful and strange ride; similar to LW iron that way.

As for other allied planes, I dont like many. I like the look of the Corsair but its so overused, I fly it only when I need to from carriers.

As for the LW - NAZI discussion: You can have any ideals and beliefs, and you wont be hunted and shot down. We are not nazis, you get to fly LW planes if you like; I personally dont care.

But I know what you mean StSanta: I am a #1 fan of Adolph Galland, that guy is like a movie character, its hard to think someone like him did existed.

------------------
Fat DRUNK Bastards.

Nothing feels sweeter than facing a powerful enemy 1 on 1, the battle is tough, but you emerge victorious. As he types <S>!!! on channel one, you open fire on his chute.

Wardog · « **Reply #21 on:** January 20, 2001, 04:15:00 PM »

How does one justify flying for a country who started a war based on world domination and Lost!!!

Sorry.. just dont care!!

BTW i am in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico and still trying to figure out this damn keyboard. 3 functions assigned to 1 key is a bit confusing.

Ill be up flying in one more week, back on the Jan 27..

Dog out...

Fishu · « **Reply #22 on:** January 20, 2001, 04:20:00 PM »

Animal, I wouldnt

can't see much out of its cockpit and what you can see through, you have wings and engines blocking that view..

I prefer seeing outside good

Saintaw · « **Reply #23 on:** January 20, 2001, 05:06:00 PM »

Are there still "Keyboard shrinking" tribes in Mexico ?

Saw

Jekyll · « **Reply #24 on:** January 20, 2001, 05:14:00 PM »

So wardog, I take it that if AH ever models Vietnam era aircraft you will NOT be flying US iron?

54Ed · « **Reply #25 on:** January 20, 2001, 05:48:00 PM »

How do you fly for the Luftwaffe? Everyone I've seen in AH flies for the Rooks, Bish, or Nits.

But speaking seriously, if you want to identify yourself with Luftwaffe pilots by flying only German planes and adopting LW heritage for your squad, then good for you. Many of them were very skilled, honorable, and brave men who deserve to be remembered well. I see no need for you to explain yourself.

Just remember two things, though. First, don't slide into the trap of moral equivalency while trying to explain your affinity for the LW. Yes, all sides did bad things, but they were not equally wrong. The Allies (at least the western ones) did some bad things in the pursuit of a greater good. The Axis did many bad things in the pursuit of an evil agenda. There is a big difference.

Second, remember that there are idiots out there who think the Nazis were cool. Neo-nazis are a problem in Germany, the US, and I presume Danmark as well. Don't play into their hands while arguing your points.

I can relate to your sentiments. I am from the southern US, and I admire the southern military heritage of the US Civil War. Robert E Lee and Stonewall Jackson were brilliant leaders, and the individual confederate soldier fought as bravely and well as any soldier in history. But I never forget that they fought to preserve the evil of slavery, and so the confederate cause will always be offensive to many people, especially African Americans. So I don't wave my admiration in other's faces, but indulge it privately.

54Ed · « **Reply #26 on:** January 20, 2001, 05:52:00 PM »

Cute, Jekyll. I suppose if they model the ground war in Vietnam, he won't be able to fight with the RAR then, eh?

54Ed · « **Reply #27 on:** January 20, 2001, 06:08:00 PM »

Quote

this is why the German army was the most elite army in the world man-for-man, severe discapline and punishment.

Yes, they had iron discipline, but that is not what made them so good. They were so effective because they were extremely well-led at all levels from squad to Field Army. They also were the beneficiaries of a military philosophy known today as auftragstaktik, kept alive through generations of prussian soldiers, that recognized the value of initiative in battle. Finally, they carefully built a military system that paid attention to detail in all things and got most of them right. They also had a 5-year head start on the Allies in building this system.

Bottom line from a military professional (me): severe discipline can make a man fight, but it won't make him fight well.

Hangtime · « **Reply #28 on:** January 20, 2001, 06:18:00 PM »

Damn Jekyll.. last I checked, it was Australian Bacon we saved in WWII.. and when we got involved in Vietnam, I seem to recall your boys were already there. Something about a 'domino theory', with the security of your nation very high on the list of reasons for us to stick a toe in.

Oh well. live and learn.. had no idea the Aussies regard us as nazi-type slave nation-state creators.

StSanta · « **Reply #29 on:** January 20, 2001, 06:30:00 PM »

With me, I don't hide what I think. If I were to think the LW planes are good looking suckers and that the men flying them skilled pilots, I'll hold that opinion, publicly and privately.

It might disturb some people's sensitivities, but I'll be damned if I was put on this planet to please everyone

.

Besides, those leather boots and the monocles...classy.

------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

"I am the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldricht

[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 01-20-2001).]