It is going to happen...

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Toad:
Yoj shoots! Yoj scores!

I agree.

It is up to the Citizenry to exercise oversight.  

Good luck. The Citizenry doesn't get to see the POM in all it's grizzly detail. Until it becomes a major acquisition program, you probably won't know it exists. Look to your chosen representatives in the respective defense appropriations committees of the House and Senate.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Toad:
Really?

So what then was Clinton's intent in funding it throughout his Presidency?

Because we had to keep up with the technology in the event that the Soviet Union (Russia) might violate the treaty (as we are about to).

[Boroda]

Toad, don't tell fairy tales about "democracy" and "people's decision".

Americans, or their Congress will vote exactly as they will be supposed to. The party that will have more money and access to media will win undoubtely. "Democratical process" will finaly end up as something like Lokheed against NMD in case McDonnel will get the contract, and vise versa.

It happens everywhere, in Russia (Putin's elections), Europe, etc.  

[Toad]

Originally posted by Sandman_SBM:


Because we had to keep up with the technology in the event that the Soviet Union (Russia) might violate the treaty (as we are about to).

We're about to violate the treaty?

We may withdraw, but they've already said they won't violate it.

I'm sure you are aware of this part of the treaty, so why do you try to put the negative spin on it?

"TREATY BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND THE UNION OF SOVIET SOCIALIST REPUBLICS ON THE LIMITATION OF ANTI-BALLISTIC MISSILE SYSTEMS

Signed at Moscow May 26, 1972

Article XV

1. This Treaty shall be of unlimited duration.


2. Each Party shall, in exercising its national sovereignty, have the right to withdraw from this Treaty...


Your aside reminds me of Hitler’s Minister of Enlightenment and Propaganda, Joseph Goebbels, who once boasted: ‘Tell a big enough lie often enough and people will believe it’s true.’

[ 07-18-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]

[Toad]

Well, Boroda, must be tough for a guy used to continually and completely rigged elections to accept that the people do have the ability to remove a politician and replace him.

If the US citizens fail to exercise their obligation to oversee the process, they have no one to blame but themselves for what happens.

There will be lively debate about this one for sure. The result is unforseeable at this point. I think it will have a lot to do with world events. If North Korea tests another missile across Japan or something similar happens, it might pass easily. If things stay pretty quiet and stable, it will probably not pass. Just my speculation.

[Gadfly]

LOL, Boroda, you poor, poor, little man.

[leonid]

My god, Toad.  You cry about how Bush is being unfairly accused of starting the whole ABM testing thing when blame should be placed a Clinton's feet. Then, two people knowledgable of these projects at some level explain the bureaucracy of it all, and how it really isn't influenced much by the Presidency.  You ignore that part, and promptly ask why Clinton funded it.  Someone else brings up the suggestion that maybe it's not something that can really be placed along party lines, but may be the action of the government and military/industrial complex, in general.  You then applaud that person for seeing the light.  You are a riot!  Have you considered running for political office, because you definitely have what it takes  

Don't mean to be cruel, Toad, but I couldn't help it  

[Gadfly]

I prefer to take the things out of the political context, whenever possible.  What I mean is, I look at, say, SDI, and don't really care about who did it.

I look at it from the standpoint of: Is this a good thing or a bad thing.  SDI is a good thing, and every nation should be putting it in the field ASAP.

It is not that nations will build more nukes to defeat it; it is that they should all build it so that nukes are worthless.

Politics can be layered on to any subject, but by the same token, they should be removed.

[Toad]

Leonid, look at it as an evolutionary thread. Really; read it step by step.

Notice particularly that almost all the posts are framed as questions.

I like the Socratic method.  

Sorry, I could never be an politican. I passed an integrity test.  

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Toad:


We're about to violate the treaty?

We may withdraw, but they've already said they won't violate it.

I'm sure you are aware of this part of the treaty, so why do you try to put the negative spin on it?

...yadda yadda yadda...
[ 07-18-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]

Violate... withdraw... whatever.

[Toad]

Yeah, the meaning of words.

How immaterial THAT is to an argument, eh?  

[Sandman]

The end result is the same, an increase in MIRV threats.

[Toad]

That would simply be mere speculation on your part. Nothing has been decided as yet, so there's nothing to support your hypothesis.

As a side note, it would still be highly unlikely that the number of MIRV's would ever reach the previous highs. The world survived that, too, for an awfully long time without mishap.

The main point, however, is that your choice of terminology is just one more example of your non-stop campaign to negatively characterize the US in any way you can. Deliberately using an incorrect and negative connotation that simply isn't true, for example.

[Nifty]

If the bombs didn't fly during Kennedy's administration, they're not gonna be flying now either.

More MIRVs... so what?  does that really increase the chances that Russia, China or US will use them?  Besides, if a 16 ton lead weight fell on you (a la Looney Toons) would you be any more dead if a 1 ton weight fell on you?

I'm against the deployment, because it's pointless.  If there's a full scale launch, we're all dying.  Plain and simple.  You may not get incinerated, but you will die from the radiation.  However, I don't think this will ever happen.  We'd go through a Deep Impact/Armaggedon scenario before we go through a The Last Day (whatever that movie in the 80's was) scenario.

[Fatty]

Yep, Cuba was the test, an "excuse" like that to launch is not likely to come again in our lifetimes.