Putin wants in Nato

[mietla]

Originally posted by Boroda:
Mietla, please don't put words in my mouth.

sorry for the sarcasm, but it kind of bugs me if someone shows an admiration for this piece of filfh Stalin (jokingly or not)

[Dowding]

Admiration of Stalin is growing in Russia - an artifact of the increased support for extremist parties triggered by - yes, it's our old friends - poverty and disillusionment.

50 million is a little high - most historians agree the figure is around 28 million. Still, based on a extrapolation of the population of Russia prior to 1917, to the present day, Russia is a much smaller country.

Due to the enormous casualties suffered in WW2 (both civilian and military), starvation in the early reforms when Stalin gained power, and to a lesser extent, the purges and murder of political 'dissidents'.

The 20th century was a superb century for despotic mass-murderers. Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot. Will we ever see their kind again?

As for NATO, I want ot see Russian in it. Maybe reform is needed first, but that shouldn't be a concrete wall.

[ 07-19-2001: Message edited by: Dowding ]

[mrfish]

but the real question is does nato wanna get some putin?

 

[PapaH]

Originally posted by Ripsnort:


Another thing that Putin lacks is paranoia and insanity.

Too early to judge on these two.

PapaH

[leonid]

Actually, Putin not only said that he would like there to be talk of Russia's inclusion to NATO, but he also put forth the idea that maybe NATO is no longer valid with the fall of the Soviet Union, and that a newer, exclusively European alliance should be considered.

Putin has a point, and Europe should certainly be able to handle what lies before it without military assistance from the USA.  Times are changing.

[GRUNHERZ]

Boroda you Russians will never amount to anything if you all think like you do..........

Sorry to say but its true, please move on.

Look how the Germans and Japanese have done it, your post-communist period is very much the same.

Admit your mistakes, abandon the idols, shelve the blind pride, and move forward!

Good Luck!

[Dead Man Flying]

The only thing to admire about Stalin is the fact that he's dead.

-- Todd/DMF

[leonid]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Boroda you Russians will never amount to anything if you all think like you do..........

Sorry to say but its true, please move on.

Look how the Germans and Japanese have done it, your post-communist period is very much the same.

Admit your mistakes, abandon the idols, shelve the blind pride, and move forward!

Good Luck!

When referring to Germany & Japan, if you mean their rise from the ashes of defeat in WWII, it was a totally different set of conditions.  Basically, in the case of Germany and Japan the USA rebuilt them both up, politically and financially.  Money was no problem as long as a democratic political process was firmly emplaced in each former Axis nation.

In Russia, after the fall of the Soviet Union, money was everything.  While during the postwar era it was considered a sound exchange for adding another democratic nation into the world, in the 1990's Russia was viewed as an opportunity to make cash.  The logic(or excuse?) was that any country that has a chance at a free market would just suddenly 'will' itself into a free nation.  At least, that's the way I see it, because nothing else they did made any sense.  I mean, we had this golden opportunity to make firm friends with our former nemesis, and help them on their difficult path to democracy, but instead we let our pockets do the talking.  We couldn't rise to the occasion, like we did back during the postwar, and figure out what mattered(guiding another nation to democracy) and what didn't(money).

[GRUNHERZ]

leonid I wasnt reffering to financial aspects of post war Germany or Japan. It was more about attitude and just learing to move on, from listeng to several Russians I know and some I have seen on this and other BBS areas there seems to be a lot of "Borodas", with stements like "Stalin was greatest politician.....", followed by a minimal quailification. It just doesnt seem healthy to have such an outlook, I say move on drop the failed idols and confront the new problems, dont forever fight the old wars.

[Eagler]

Everybody wants something ... Let's make a Deal!

[Fatty]

Do you really think Russians would have been happy about us setting up military governments for the period of transition Leonid, as was done in Germany and Japan?

And if we did, to supervise that everything going to Russia as aid was going to Russia as aid, to monitor corruption, and to oversee govermental reforms, I'm sure that you would praise the fact our troops were in Moscow, "helping."

[mrfish]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying:
The only thing to admire about Stalin is the fact that he's dead.

-- Todd/DMF

he had good hair....in a mike ditka sorta way.

[Yeager]

Stalin imprisoned hundreds of thousands who talked against him (and anyone unfortunate enough to be associated with someone who did)
 
Stalin murdered anyone whom he believed would plot against him (and anyone unfortunate enough to be associated with someone who did).  These estimates conservatively are in the low tens of thousands during the second world war and many tens of thousands before his death.  He was quite simply the most ruthless barbaric human slave owner in all of human history.

Unfortunately, Russians think of him as a great man but I suppose by Russian standrads he was a great man.

Yeager

[Pongo]

Yeager. The conservative numbers finnaly accepted in the west are in the 10s of millions. Not thousands.
From what I have seen of Soviet "help" in the balkans they would only join Nato to ruin it.
The Japanese and the Germans were defeated in a way that only the most thick could deny. Much as the Southern states where. Only an increadble fring holds out any thought of a different out come in all three places. The Russians imploded. They were not defeated. The % of people that can envision a different outcome and come up with excuses as to why it could be different must neccesarily be very much higher.
Borodo seems like a nut to me. But maybe Ive been brainwashed by the CBC into wrong think.

[Fishu]

Letting russia partly in NATO might be good idea... might warm up relationship with western and eastern countries.

We can't really refer to Stalin here, even though Putin is an ex-KGB.
At least hopefully.