Young boy Bain Dead after pointing air gun at Police

[lazs2]

well.... it would have been very unlikely to have happened years ago...  we could ride our bikes with rifles across the bars and a cop would maybe stop us to check if it was loaded..... he wouldn't have called 600 swat team guys or.... even called backup..

If we mouthed off he would pushed us around... if we attacked him he would beat the crap out of us (he wasn't a 5' woman in those days)... if it got ugly he woulda used a nightstick..

Some of the problems we have are from making the cops less and less able to use their own judgement and affirmative action useless police officers hired.  Taking away the option of useing a nightstick..

lazs

[Maverick]

Yeag, I thought you were smarter than that. You are way out of line with your first post. Did you bother to even look at the photo's in the article you linked??

For the armchair quarterbacks safe in their postion in front of a keyboard instead of the field. There is something you need to keep in mind.

Police Officers, Deputy's and so on are NOT paid to die on the job. They are paid, rather poorly, to RISK that situation, not surrender to it, just to make sure a suspect's threat is real.

Any tactical situation is for real. There is no "do over" and you do not pop back up all hale and healthy in a freaking tower so you can keep playing. The mistake you make may be what your family will have to live with when you are gone after making that mistake.

The Officers / Deputy's responding were told that a student has a firearm. They HAVE to assume it is true and act accordingly. Once the weapon threat is made, the assumption remains that it IS real until it is PROVEN that it is not a real weapon. That will only happen once the weapon and suspect are secure. Secure means that the weeapon is no longer in the suspects hands and the suspect himself / herself is secured. This is the same for a firearm, knife, rock or stick. Even then you can't relax as there may be another suspect that no one knows about, yet.

The suspects actions also lend credibility to the validity of the threat. He claimed he wanted to kill himself, pointed the weapon at himself as if he was going to commit suicide and in everyones statements about it, behaved as if the weapon was a real firearm.

There is no excuse for what the "kid" did. No one made him bring that item to school. No one forced him to try to take multiple hostages. No one forced him to remain in the building refusing to surrender. No one forced him to keep the gun in his possession. Finally no one forced him to point it at a Deputy. He made those decisions on his own.

Unfortunately there are several folks who will have to live with the decisions that STUPID kid made. The family of the kid, the Deputy that had to make a life or death decision in less than a second, and his family. That doesn't even include the students that STUPID kid traumatized during this situation or the school staff and faculty who will deal with this for a long time.

Some of you folks really need to get out in the world and see what it is like in real life instead of computer games. You want to blame the Cop who had to be there and deal with the situation this kid forced on him. That is so damn stupid. You really ought to try and think about who the real protagonist in this entire situation was. If you can't do that, at least STFU and let those far more qualified investigate it and spoon feed you in small bits so you can understand it.

[Morpheus]

Fuggin-A right Mav.

[Vulcan]

Maverick, I do entirely agree with your point.

However I do have one question here, given this kid had no hostages, what was the non-lethal option? I know in NZ either a dog, tazer, or non-lethal (leg) shot would have been the first option.

Whats the US Police policy like on this?

[B@tfinkV]

being a UK resident you might have your preconceptions of what my views will be.


you're probably wrong.



the idiot took a weapon (a length of 30lb fishing line can be used to kill someone) to a school, pointed it at the police, and then payed the price for his total stupidity..



eskimo summed it up 100%


"kid brain dead BEFORE pointing air rifle at police"

[lasersailor184]

Non lethal option is for when the person is not a direct threat to everyone around them.  I.E. Hippies protesting.

When hippies protest, they do not have weapons at all, so when they break the law, there is no problem tazering them into submission.

However, any non lethal option still compromises the safety of the user at the hands of the target.

To tazer someone, you have to be visible and close.

[NUKE]

Originally posted by Vulcan
Maverick, I do entirely agree with your point.

However I do have one question here, given this kid had no hostages, what was the non-lethal option? I know in NZ either a dog, tazer, or non-lethal (leg) shot would have been the first option.

Whats the US Police policy like on this?

Someone points a gun at a cop, the best option is to shoot them dead before they can shoot the cop.

[Maverick]

Originally posted by Vulcan
Maverick, I do entirely agree with your point.

However I do have one question here, given this kid had no hostages, what was the non-lethal option? I know in NZ either a dog, tazer, or non-lethal (leg) shot would have been the first option.

Whats the US Police policy like on this?

Vulcan non lethal response to a lethal threat is a good way to get very dead very fast. Tazer takes time. Tazer is good as a distance weapon against a contact weapon wielding suspect. Not against a suspect with another distance weapon.

The kid already had a deadly weapon threat presented to the Deputy. It's not time to try options at that point. If the kid had a stick or knife and was more than 10 feet away, maybe then but only if the deputy had the tazer ready. Reaction time is against the Deputy, he was only going to get one chance and had to have already made the decision to do what he did once a triger point was passed. Pointing a gun at him is certainly a trigger point.

Just out of curiosity given the situation that actually happened. Exactly what would you have done? No second guessing, no after the fact information, just a person with a gun who won't talk, negotiate and suddenly points it at you. You have less than 3/10 of a second to decide what to do AND do it. What would you do?

FWIW. Dogs aren't bullet proof and they take time. A shot to the leg will not stop the suspect shooting you and will not stop them from continuing to shoot until they run out of shells. A tazer will not fire, make contact and render the suspect harmless in the time the suspect has to shoot using a lethal weapon.

[Vulcan]

Its interesting, in NZ the approach would've been what I described. Most commonly a dog is sent in, and there have been a few cases of dogs getting shot (plus making recoveries!). I can think of a few where the offender aimed a weapon at police. However, at no stage did our police present themselves as a clear target - maybe thats the difference.

The only recent examples of police killing I can think of was one a few years back where a cop was killed and the killer went on the run, and when cornered died in a "shootout".  The other was when a guy was going absolutely nuts in a small town and charged a police officer with an axe.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
being a UK resident you might have your preconceptions of what my views will be.

you're probably wrong.

the idiot took a weapon (a length of 30lb fishing line can be used to kill someone) to a school, pointed it at the police, and then payed the price for his total stupidity..

eskimo summed it up 100%

"kid brain dead BEFORE pointing air rifle at police"

Ummm, while I have no problem with the cops decision to shoot the kid, I do have a problem with your view. Its simplistic. What we have here is a kid with issues, takes an air-pistol to school, and gets suicide by cop. Hell, when I was young me and a friend used to play pain-ball, its like paint-ball with air rifles/pistols (we wore face masks for eye protection). Hurt like crap but certainly wasn't lethal. When you hit puberty where you level headed? clear thinking? did you have any troubles as a teen?

[fartwinkle]

Originally posted by moose
they were in a confined school hallway with probably poor lighting.. i dont think swat had broken out the rifles just yet

 

I have a friend in a swat unit he told me that sharpshooters are always deployed . You might not see them but they are there providing intell and ready to take the shot if needed.

He also told me that pelet gun or "real" gun if it was pointed at the officers
they would shoot without question.

I think there is no right or wrong in this case the kid was wacked  and the cops had to do what we pay em for and that is to serve and protect.

Everybody hurts on this one the kids family the cop that shot him and us as a society because  we are becoming more and more amune to  the violence.

[fartwinkle]

Originally posted by Vulcan
Ummm, while I have no problem with the cops decision to shoot the kid, I do have a problem with your view. Its simplistic. What we have here is a kid with issues, takes an air-pistol to school, and gets suicide by cop. Hell, when I was young me and a friend used to play pain-ball, its like paint-ball with air rifles/pistols (we wore face masks for eye protection). Hurt like crap but certainly wasn't lethal. When you hit puberty where you level headed? clear thinking? did you have any troubles as a teen?

Geebuz I remember playing war games with my friends using our bb guns popping each other in the butt

We did not pump them but once so they would not penetrate but sure stung like he11:O

I can only imagine doing that these days and someone seeing it
Swat teams ATF the whole law enforcement community would be on us.

MY MY how times have changed.

[B@tfinkV]

Originally posted by Vulcan
Ummm, while I have no problem with the cops decision to shoot the kid, I do have a problem with your view. Its simplistic. What we have here is a kid with issues, takes an air-pistol to school, and gets suicide by cop. Hell, when I was young me and a friend used to play pain-ball, its like paint-ball with air rifles/pistols (we wore face masks for eye protection). Hurt like crap but certainly wasn't lethal. When you hit puberty where you level headed? clear thinking? did you have any troubles as a teen?

simplistic? yup, and so was this scenario.



the kid must have seen the columbine reports, and others.

he pointed a 'gun' at an armed police officer.



If anyone points a gun at you from close range, you dont want to shoot him in the leg, you want to kill him or knock him out cold. a wound in the leg doesnt mean he cant pull the trigger and destroy your life.



This kid should have known what was happening, he screwed up and it cost him.

natural selection.


he said he was gunna kill himself anyhow.


sure, i had troubles when i was a teen, i still have troubles as an adult. i just go out and get drunk or high with my friends, or enjoy some bed time activities with a female.


taking a gun to school, even before the columbine incedent, is just plain stupid even in my country. in America where even the bus driver carry guns is just pure idiocy.


im sorry to sound harsh, and it would break my heart if it was my kid, but he may as well have gone and played on the highway on a blind corner.

he deserved what he got.

what if he had shot another kids eye out? or worse?


nope, this kid was deluded, better off dead.



ever seen Swallows and Amazans written by Arther Ransom?


famous and profound quote to the children off on a sailing trip from their uncle.



"If not duffers, wont drown. If duffers, better off drowned"

[indy007]

Fake Gun


Real Gun


Now, somebody tell me the difference, while being held by a moving target.

[B@tfinkV]

either way im getting the heck out of the way if hes pointing one at me.