FoMoCo crash and burn

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
Ok, Toad, let's just put an end to this union thing between ourselves.  Nothing worse than two intelligent people beating their heads against different sides of the same wall.

You have a very different perspective than I do about unions.  I guess you see something positive in them, while every contact I have had with union has been negative.

In light of that, I really cannot see us having a meeting of the minds.  Further disussion would be rather predictable and pointless, from me, or you.

Let's agree to disagree, shall we?

Skuzzy, I'm like you pretty anti-union. However I have my reservations, and its all based around some interesting doco's I watched on industry in the US during the 19th and early 20th centuries, particularly stuff like company towns - it was pretty nasty.

[Rolex]

After a little reflection, I want to make sure I'm not misunderstood about something: There are plenty of excellent American companies with dedicated employees who take pride in their work and craftsmenship.

Now, that doesn't mean the US is best in the world at manufacturing the highest quality products in all sectors. You have to maturely address your weaknesses before you can come up with solutions and strategies. If you sit around thinking that you are the best, you probably aren't.

Peter Drucker - author of "In Search of Excellence" - admitted that he fabricated the whole thing. He didn't interview the people; he made it all up. The people quoted and companies heralded were not about to deny they were great, and Drucker knew that. It was all a romantic myth that sold well and fit into the need for people to feel good about themselves.

I know that is disappointing. We hate it when are myths of greatness are burst.

I think the romantic notion that unions are only fighting for justice and reasonable treatment for their members is just like that also - a romantic notion of days gone by, and sadly lost, like white picket fences, unlocked doors and Sheriff Andy Griffith. Even the most reasonable executive cannot negotiate with some of the radical national unions of today. You would have about as much luck negotiating with a terroist as you would have with some of the union 'negotiators' I've had the agony of dealing with.

Of course, all circumstances, companies and employees are different. The employees are mostly great, it's a shame to see many of them manipulated by some unions who thrive by creating as much ill-will and antagonism as they can.

China will continue to expand in parts manufacturing. Romantic notions will not stop that; only rational acceptance that other industries have to be created and operated well by management and employees, together.

One day, China may likely be producing and assembling most of your cars. Hoping that doesn't happen is not a very good strategy. Thinking it could never happen is economic suicide. It won't matter who is to "blame."

[lazs2]

rolex... one minor point about jap repair shops or lack thereof... How many 20 year old cars do you see in japan?   How many cars with 250,000 miles on the drivetrain?  How many cars there get 20-50k a year put on em?  You don't need so many repair shops for new cars or cars that aren't ever driven.

As for unions... They are pretty much evil and corrupt... traditionaly there has been no alternative in the whole checks and balances routine with union vs management...

Some alternatives have started to come about... interest based barganing watched over by a mediator...  Paid negotiators... etc.   You get rid of all the union corruption and bloat and still get to have a say at the barganing table... A say that is based on logic not elections or dues.

lazs

[SirLoin]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
every contact I have had with union has been negative.

 

Skuzzy if you worked on an assembly line where management only cares about keeping the line moving and heaping as much work as possible on the worker(and firing anyone who develops an injury) you might see representation in a different light.

btw..i work at Ford Freestar plant Oakville.

[Gunthr]

quote:
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Originally posted by Gunthr
Those conditions do not exist today, and Federal and State administrative law would prevent all of those past abuses today.
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Sadly, you are incorrect. I worked for a company that deliberately and routinely scheduled in violation of Federal Aviation Regulations. They covered this by "cooking the books" and altering flight times. There are laws against that you know. When caught at it, they merely claimed "bookkeeping errors" and went on their merry way.

So, from personal experience, I find your assumption incorrect.  Toad

I disagree.  The administrative laws, and particularly the spectacular payouts awarded by jurys to victims of workplace abuse by management, have most definately had a major impact on how companies do buisness, in effect suppressing much of the misconduct that you suggest unions are an absolute necessity to protect us from.

In the case that you use as an example, the law functioned as it should, and the company stopped "cooking the books."  You say that the company then went on it's merry way, claiming book keeping errors.  To me, that suggests that there was not enough evidence or proof against them to prosecute.  However, their behavior was corrected.  Unions, besides being far less needed then they were in the past,  have hurt not only industries, but their own members, and they have become political tools in partisan politics - sometimes against the wishes of union members.  I'm glad that they are on the decline.

[LePaul]

Oh I see.  World trade is good ...if and only if we gain from it all around.  If they produce a better vehicle and us silly consumers opt for it, that's bad?

If marketshare slips to overseas makers, perhaps its time to take a lesson in what they are offering consumers versus what the domestics are.  

Its a global market.  Someday the union thought will realize that.

[Maverick]

Frankly I don't see the situation as discussed (or cussed) as a simple 2 sided coin. I see it as a combination of things.

It can't be soley the unions fault that the company is going under as wages are not the only driving factor.

It can't be the admin. soley as the problem as they don't get the work all done.

It can't be the stock holders as they do not run the day to day operations.

It can't be the competition only as there has to BE competition on an open economy and the govt. interference in things like taxes and tarriffs play in there as well.

It can't be the consumer..... well in a way it can if they simply do not buy the product. Can we say Yugo??? But that is not the case here.

In my opinion it is a combination of things. Back in the 70's the Japanese manufacturers found themselves with a dramatically larger slice of the market due to the price of oil. The American manufacturers all had the idea bigger is the only way. More cubic inches, more barrels in the carb more sheet metal twisted into fanciful shapes. Fins and titties on bumpers for example. The Japanese were about the only ones that had a REAL fuel economy driven line up and they were compared to US cars, CHEAP. Remember the older Datsun 280 Z's and Mazda RX4's at $3k and $4k loaded? They had even cheaper cars that got fuel mileage in the mid to high 20's while American cars sucked gas in single digits.

American manufacturers were not building what people wanted to buy. They tried stop gap measure slapped together but Japan had already caught on. They started to raise prices almost instantly on the same cars that they had to almost give away the year before. I saw the price on a Mazda RX7 go from $6500.00 to 11,000 in one month. Of course Car and Driver making it the car of the year hads a bit to do with that too. I went and bought a 280Z when that happened.

Other costs besides wages and management packages are driving the cost of vehicles. Think legal. The trend in the US to sue for any and everything as well as the legal systems inability to stick to a narrow focus on real cause of events led to the increas in costs as well. Tort almost single handedly killed the small aircraft industry in the US. Now about half to 2/3's of the cost of a new light aircraft is the result of legal action. It bankrupted Piper and cause Cessna to drop production entirely in small private aircraft. A major part of the cost in a ground vehicle can be attributed to the same cause. An entire "industry" of lawyers lives in that trough.

I do NOT excuse management OR unions for their part either. Over specialization in job tasks, excessive wage and benefit demands as well as a lack of forsight in market trends will play a part in any business collapse. I saw the copper indistry in AZ. die in one year because of the union not looking past their paychecks and the potential increase in union dues. Once they pushed the cost beyond profitabilty the mines were simply closed. The miners that were rioting, not demonstratinf but rioting, for a wage of $21.00 to $28.00 an hour for a basic miner lost it all. That was when the base wage in AZ. was about $7.00 an hour for labor in the late 60's and 1970. Don't laugh, at that time you could buy a concrete block or brick construction house at about 2,200 Sq Ft for $20,000. Kaliphornia stucko hadn't been introduced there yet. The mines are still closed today other than a "token" operation to just keep the EPA off of their back.

The idea of a union also helped a couple times. One attempting to get organized in the Police Department spurred the FOP (bargaining agent) and the City to get serious about wages for Cops. The monthly salary in 1973 was about $500.00 to $700.00 for a 10 year veteran. Those who had families were frequently on food stamps to feed their kids. When I came in the wages had increased so that an accademy student was making an in class wage of $900.00 a month. The base wage went to $1500.00 a month on graduation. I thought I was in big money then. Compare that to the miners rioting to get over $20.00 an hour.

As I said earlier it is a combination iof things that is causing the auto manufacturers to be cutting back. Not one side is all at fault, and neither side is blameless. They have to build what people want to buy, they have to build it at a price people are willing to pay and they have to build it in a quality manner that makes people want to buy another later on. A one hit line up won't make it for a companies survival.

[Rolex]

Yup, you're right, lazs. You rarely see cars more than 10 years old in Japan. Twenty year old cars just look old and out of style, like 20 year old clothes. Actually, you see more 40 year old American cars here than 20 year old ones built anywhere. 1960 cars are much cooler than 1980 cars.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Gunthr
In the case that you use as an example, the law functioned as it should, and the company stopped "cooking the books."  

No, the "law" did not function at all. No FAA people check to see if the airline is abiding by the FAR's except in a few announced visits.

The pilots themselves, through the Union, enforced the FARs.

Please forgive me but you simply don't have a clue about how they manage to avoid complying with the regs.

It's ongoing; it never ceases. It's why the Union has a bunch of volunteers that continually verify that scheduling is in accordance with the FARs.

And it is always corrected AFTER the fact. You have "fly first, grieve later". The usual result is some "oops, your right. we won't do that anymore." Until the next time they feel they need to do so, of course.

[Toad]

Originally posted by LePaul
Oh I see.  World trade is good ...if and only if we gain from it all around.  If they produce a better vehicle and us silly consumers opt for it, that's bad?

If marketshare slips to overseas makers, perhaps its time to take a lesson in what they are offering consumers versus what the domestics are.  

Its a global market.  Someday the union thought will realize that.

Still not seeing the long term implications are you? When nothing is manufactured here because better goods can be manufactured elsewhere at a labor cost 90% below US rates..... what jobs will be available in the US economy that will allow you to purchase major items like cars and homes?

Simply put, when everyone is in the service industry mowing grass and flipping burgers what sort of standard of living will this country have?

You have a choice though. You can come close to matching labor cost with China and keep those jobs or you can lose them and flip burgers in the service industry.

Welcome to the global economy.

It won't happen overnight but unless the US finds a way to make or produce something the world is willing to pay a large amount of money to have our standard of living will inevitably decline in a major fashion.

Try to think a few decades ahead and see if you can envision a US economy where no "big ticket" items are built and no unique intellectual properties are exclusively produced and marketed from here.

How do you think that will be?

[Gunthr]

No, the "law" did not function at all. No FAA people check to see if the airline is abiding by the FAR's except in a few announced visits.

The pilots themselves, through the Union, enforced the FARs.

Please forgive me but you simply don't have a clue about how they manage to avoid complying with the regs.

It's ongoing; it never ceases. It's why the Union has a bunch of volunteers that continually verify that scheduling is in accordance with the FARs.

And it is always corrected AFTER the fact. You have "fly first, grieve later". The usual result is some "oops, your right. we won't do that anymore." Until the next time they feel they need to do so, of course. - Toad

Quite right, Toad, I'm not familiar with the details of how the FAA does it's job regulating airlines... I was wondering if there was any reason the pilots couldn't report the violations to the regulatory agency, the FAA in this case, instead of having a union steward tell them they have to pay dues to the union if they want action taken for violations?  

Anyway,  I'm aware that there are instances all over the country where Unions have important functions... but I still don't believe we need Unions in every single enterprize in this country, that it often hurts the enterprize and the workers themselves.   Everyone's percption of this issue seems to be directly related to their own personal experiences with unions.  (I remember a heroin addict getting caught red handed by a foreman shooting up in the bathroom at the Ford Truck plant in Wayne, Michigan. and not getting fired - the union force management to send the individual for rehabilitation.)  Regardless of our individual views, I don't think that there is any denying the general trend is that union membership is down overall.  I find that trend more understandable than the trend for American car makers to continue thumbing their noses at their customers.

I'm not so sure it is due to cheap labor out of the country, necessarily.  Aren't the high quality asian made cars every bit as expensive here as domestic  made cars?  I find it hard to fathom why US auto workers and management don't accept the challange to stop making crappy, ill concieved cars that don't give the customer what they want.

The way you tell it, Toad, you make it sound like the US auto industry is simply living out an inevitable economic cycle.  I'm having trouble with that idea.  I'm also having trouble with your implication that if we sealed off our borders and stopped the FTA, everything will be alright again....

[Nash]

Health care.

GM spends over 5 billion a year on it. (Nevermind pensions)...

It's unaffordable if you want to remain competative.

Hooray for the great privatized health care system when you have to lay off 30,000 people to "afford" it.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Gunthr
I was wondering if there was any reason the pilots couldn't report the violations to the regulatory agency, the FAA in this case, instead of having a union steward tell them they have to pay dues to the union if they want action taken for violations?

[/b]

The records are there for the FAA to see if they ever decide to look. Primarily you run into a problem of 1) the ability of the airline to cover it's tracks by several means 2) the problem of self-incrimination as you have to, by contract, "fly then grieve" a problem. If one were to simply refuse to fly except in the most clear cut of cases one could be fired. 3) the risk of creating a totally adversarial relationship. I was lucky that at my airline the Union and the Company got along reasonably well and neither really wanted to invite the FAA in to shut down the operation.

As I said, for an outsider it's probably hard to fathom. But without the Union, the company didn't really consider FAA rules too hard and fast in many areas, crew scheduling being one of those areas.

but I still don't believe we need Unions in every single enterprize in this country, that it often hurts the enterprize and the workers themselves.

[/b]

And of course I haven't said that at all. What I said is Unions are necessary, not that every single enterprise must have one. Unions, like it or not, are a counterbalance in society. Without them, no 40 hour workweek, no two week vacation, no 8 hour workday, health care, etc., etc. And yes, I do believe that if all Unions were eliminated, the pendulum would slowly swing back that way to the "good old days" for management.

   

I'm not so sure it is due to cheap labor out of the country, necessarily.  Aren't the high quality asian made cars every bit as expensive here as domestic  made cars?

[/b]

Yes; eventually, however, they too will have to deal with the competition from overseas. Toyota plants here still will have labor costs 80+ % higher than plants in developing countries. Toyota will eventually move too.

My view of this is pretty much like a huge sea change on the order of the Industrial Revolution. It won't happen all at once in an instant but there's a confluence of events/technologies that make it easy to manufacture complex machines/products in undeveloped countries where labor is plentiful and cheap. You no longer need a highly technical workforce to do so either. Chinese farmboys can do the job with just a little training.

Communication is instant nowadays; complex change orders/programs for robots can be interneted right to the machine in seconds.

Transportation of heavy goods is faster and cheaper now due to the huge container ships.

Free trade is the order of the day.

All these things and others are changing the world. I personally think that one big change is that high paying manufacturing jobs are going to places where labor is cheap. Steel industry? Autos? Aircraft production? (Look at how many places build big pieces of a Boeing now... they're sure not all in the US, are they?)

Yeah, I may be wrong but I don't think so.

You don't have to look very far to see the US doesn't make much in the way of big ticket items anymore.

 The way you tell it, Toad, you make it sound like the US auto industry is simply living out an inevitable economic cycle.  I'm having trouble with that idea.

[/b]

Yes, I think it's inevitable. Follow the money. Where are US corporations building most of their new plants? Delphi for instance; bankrupt and closing in the US, building and expanding in China.

I'm also having trouble with your implication that if we sealed off our borders and stopped the FTA, everything will be alright again....

You have made that part up. I didn't say that at all.

I said Free Trade is one of the causal factors in this sea change. I don't think you can put the Genie back in the bottle.

I do think this cycle is inevitable. Manufacturing is going where labor is cheap and will continue to do so because now, more than ever before, you can make anything anywhere.

I think China's day will eventually come as well. There will be some other starving population willing to work for less. It'll be many years into the future though.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Nash
Hooray for the great privatized health care system when you have to lay off 30,000 people to "afford" it.

It may well be this sort of thing that drives us to the "wait six months for a CAT scan" socialized systems that suxxor in the other countries that have them.

[Nash]

Quite right.