Author Topic: Remington 700!  (Read 1403 times)

Offline Pongo

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Remington 700!
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2006, 12:44:21 AM »
.257 Roberts.

storch

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« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2006, 06:56:47 AM »
that's some fine shooting fartwrinkle. if the topic is game animals, there is nothing in N. America that the .30-06 can't bring down.  for a prudent hunter there is nothing in the world that the .30-06 can't handle.  I agree with other posters that the .243 is plenty for white tail and carefully placed rounds will kill just about anything encountered in N. America.  heres an anecdote.  way back when as I first started hunting I went on a boar hunt in the summer with a much more experienced friend. at about 150 yards through some brush I spot some shiny black fur.  my bud assures me it's a pig and tells me to fire which I do.  I missed!! but oddly the pig doesn't run.  so I a chamber another round and fire, missed again!!! the animal is still right where it was unbelievably!!!!!  my bud muttering something about noobs with ladies guns (I was shooting a model 70 in .243) shoots it with his .30-06  and he misses!!!! he fires again and misses again!!!!  he says no fluff'n way I missed so we wait a bit and the beast still hasn't moved.  after a long time cautiously we approach to find that we had killed a fine bull that was lying down in the shade on a hot florida day.  not sticking around to find out who owned it, we were hunting on public land.  I suspect my first l'il .243 must have severed it's spine and the .30-06s bled him out.  I still feel real bad about that incident though it happened thirty years ago.

Offline Mini D

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« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2006, 07:39:55 AM »
I've done it a couple of times. I didn't realize it was so special. A 1" group is a bit excessive at 100 yards... are you sure about that.. from a bench? Sorry I don't have the targets, but it's not anything I ever thought I'd have to "prove".

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2006, 08:50:15 AM »
I admit to be no rifle shot.   The best I ever did was a 3" group at 100 yards with a 760 remington ought six with open sights.   Everyone allways tells me that they can shoot half inch groups at 100 yards with their everyday hunting rifles but that day.... the best any of the four could do was a 2" group and all of em had 9 power scopes.   There were lots of excuses and lot's of do overs with things never getting much better.

I feel damn lucky to keep 5 or 8 rounds in a five inch circle with open sights at 100 yards....  really a decent day if I can do about twice that with 6 rounds with a handgun with open sights.

Most of the hunters I see are shooting 2 or 3" 100 yard groups from sandbags at 100 yards with scopes.    The benchrest specialty guys with big bores are doing like an inch...  

lazs

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2006, 10:52:31 AM »
Laz, if you can put 5 rounds in a 5" circle on open sights at 100 yards off of a bench you are a fine shot by anybodys standards. The FAL and the M-39 do it for me routinely when I'm having a good day.

And a scope might help finesse a lil better group.. but the scope does not shoot the gun.

For those less experienced.. a 5" black circle on a 100 yard target using open sights is the apparent size of this > .

Some rifles excell on a target line.. some of my heavy barreled old military bolties are shockingly accurate on el-cheapo brass cased surplus ammo off the bench..  Feed the same cheap ammo into a tarted up Remmy on the bench and it won't hick dick. Go figure. I picked up real early on that the way to get the thousand dollar rifle to perform like a thousand dollar rifle was to feed it hundred dollar ammo... or handloads done by somebody that's matched the ammo to the barrel and chamber. Then they shoot better than my hundred dollar mil-surp shootin 10 cent ammo. But not a thousand bucks worth better.

Most 'hunting' rifles have fairly light barrels and are optimized for 1-2 shots. Warm the gun up some and accuracy goes south. Others, built 'old world' style do better.. like the old military bolties; they do fine chuckin a 100 rounds in a half hour.. something that most 'sportsmen' would never do to their rifles; too pricey and it wears the gun out. One thing most 'sporting rifles' won't tolerate is volume.. the barrels get 'shot out' a whole lot sooner than the old military weapons.
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Offline Morpheus

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« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2006, 12:32:33 PM »
You would really need to neglect a rifle to shoot out a barrel today. It's something that is going to happen down the road with alot of shooting, but it's not going to happen that soon. I have a few 06's that have had 1000's of rounds though them, they still hold 1/2 at 100 yards. On the other hand, I have an old 220 swift built on a winchester pre64 action and that has burnt the throats out of 2 barrels already. But you're talking in some cases more than 2000 fps more than an 06 with a 220 swift.

Large caliber hunting rifles aren't meant to be taken to the range and have 100s of rounds shot through them on a daily basis. And you're probably going to be one sore puppy at the end of one of those days.
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Offline fartwinkle

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« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2006, 12:37:57 PM »
Storch you are partly correct in that the 30-06 will take most N American game.
But to be honest I dont think I would truct my arse hunting kodiak or grizzlys with anything less than a 416 rigby or 460 wetherby mag.

As far as African big game Most guides will not take you out hunting for Rhino's or elephants with anything less than something like a 500nitro express and even with that you have to get a brain shot.

I watched a show the other day were these dudes shot at a charging elephante
and shot him in the forehead from about 40ft slowed him down but it took another three shots to kill him.

And that was with a 500nitro.

I would use a 30cal on brown bear and smaller but never on a grizz or kodiak
They are just plain mean.

Offline fartwinkle

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« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2006, 12:45:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus
You would really need to neglect a rifle to shoot out a barrel today. It's something that is going to happen down the road with alot of shooting, but it's not going to happen that soon. I have a few 06's that have had 1000's of rounds though them, they still hold 1/2 at 100 yards. On the other hand, I have an old 220 swift built on a winchester pre64 action and that has burnt the throats out of 2 barrels already. But you're talking in some cases more than 2000 fps more than an 06 with a 220 swift.

Large caliber hunting rifles aren't meant to be taken to the range and have 100s of rounds shot through them on a daily basis. And you're probably going to be one sore puppy at the end of one of those days.


I had a dude explain barrell life once.
he told me that the more powder used to propell the bullett IE: big caliber the faster it will wearout.
Example my 223 will last alot longer than say a 338 lapua.
I can expect around 10.000 rounds with my pee shooter but with my 300 win mag I will get around 2.000 rnds.

It has alot to do with throat erossion as the more pwerfull load will burn away at the throat and also the greater cup pressure will take its toll on the barrell.

I also clean my barrell every 15 rnds while at the range keeps it accurate and prolong barrell life.


And yes it is correct that a hunting rifle with a smaller barrell will shoot out faster.
You have to remember that they have to take into consideration weight when making a hunting rifle who wants to lug around a 16lb rifle LOL.
Where as the bechrest people often will have guns the weight 30lbs or more.

Offline Morpheus

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« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2006, 12:56:24 PM »
More powder wont nesesarily wear out a barrle faster. There's far more to it than just that. The Ruger No 1 that I am building right now in 45-120 will have a crap load more powder in it than you could ever sqeeze into an 06 case. But it also operates at far less pressures. I will never shoot that barrel out, and it will be shooting long after I am dead and gone.

More powder will a small caliber round like a 220 swift will deffinatly speed up the life cycle of a barrle however.
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Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2006, 01:24:10 PM »
I've heard many times the '2,000 rounds' barrel life ceiling.. and have seen a guy struggling with a beautiful 30-06 Mod 70 that was 'shot out' at 3,000 rounds.

This, to me at least, is unacceptable. I admit I'm way over the edge gun-happy; I curn a minimum of 500 rounds a month on the range, last month I did three times that.  But in the back of my mind to see it commonly accepted that a 'sporting' rifles accuracy life is only a few thousand rounds is accepting a standard that's way the hell too low. That's not a rifle... it's a damn ornament.

Weight-wize; my old M-39 tips the scales at just under 10 pounds empty. My lil 'extreme scout carbine' from Gibbs (an ishapore enfield .308 cut to carbine length) weighs in at 7.7 pounds empty. Both can shoot the 5" circle of truth at 100 yards reliably all damn day, and will do so for many many years to come with correct maintenance. Both are .30 cal heavy-hitters, both have stout recoils. Know something? I don't feel a damn thing any more.. the body adapts quickly.

If a 'hunter' can't tote a 10 pound rifle all damn day, and moans about a sore shoulder after a few shots then he's just a grapefruit IMHO. ;) Whats he gonna do with a 200 pound dead deer if he can't carry or adequitly absorb the recoil from a 10 pound rifle?

So, if given the choice between a 'heavy barrel' and 'light barrel' version of the same weapon I'd buy the 'heavy' one every time.. why buy into a failed weapon design that'll be an ornament in a few months of target shooting? Especially considering that by the time you need a new one, you'll likely be prohibited from buying it?
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Offline Chimmer

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« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2006, 02:29:01 PM »
I'm more of a Winchester guy, but The Remmington line is just as good.
as far as what caliber, I would go with the 30.06.  IMO this is the most versatile caliber for hunting big game. Ie...Elk, and Deer.  Its alittle underpowered for Moose, Brown, or Grizzley bear, but If your a good shot.....Still, I think I'd opt for a tall stand if I were to use a .06 on a bear.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2006, 06:39:18 PM »
Barrel wear has NOTHING to do with the size/weight of the projectile. NOTHING.

It has everything to do with the amount of powder capacity compared to the bore size.

For example, and I speak from long term serious first hand experience, my 300 Winchester Magnum DOES NOT wear the barrel anywhere near the rate that my old 220 Swift did. It is not even close. And my 300 Winchester Magnum uses 74.5 grains of slow magnum powder behind a .308 diameter 168 grain bullet, compared to the little .223 diameter 50 grain bullet in the 220 Swift with about 40 grains of the same powder.

Now, if you step up to 300 Kong(AKA 300-378 or 308-378) or something along that order, you'll find the powder capacity in relation to the bore size is more closely comparable to the 220 Swift. Those rifles WILL wear a barrel like a 220 Swift.

The OLD chrome moly barrels from a few decades back were not as hard as the barrels today are, the heat treat is different. Never mind the fact that stainless steel has become the choice for serious overbored high velocity rifles.

It isn't even the speed difference. Again, using MY rifles as an example, the 300 Winchester pushes its 168 grain bullet around 3200 FPS, where the old 220 Swift, before I ruined it, pushed a 50 grain bullet to nearly 4200 FPS. But it was the powder burning that killed the 220 Swift, because you shoot the THROAT out, not the muzzle where the bullet is fastest.

My 300 Winchester Magnum has over 2000 rounds through it, and the throat looks great. The problem is there is now a rust spot near the muzzle where a relative borrowed it and failed to oil and clean it. It still shoots sub MOA groups, but not as consistently. So it's getting a new Douglas air gapped premium 26" number 5 taper barrel.

The 220 Swift is another story. At around 1000 rounds, I noticed the accuracy was falling off, and the bullet drop was growing at long range. So I took a chronograph and checked my velocity. Finding it off about 150 FPS, I decided I'd bump the load up a little, as I'd moved to a new lot of powder. So, I did. Next time I shot, I began to notice serious pressure signs. They were not real danger signs, but pressure had gone up. Back to the chronograph. Uh oh, I only got 40 FPS back. A complete disassembly and inspection showed serious throat wear. Cause? I had been fooling around shooting crows and varmints, and firing the gun way too many times per hour. Talking to an old gunsmith, he explained EXACTLY what I'd done by looking at the rifle BEFORE I told him anything, and then he told me how the rifle was shooting, BEFORE I told him. heating the barrel up softened the steel, and the heavy overbore charge had eroded the throat, I had literally shot the barrel out.

I have fired the 300 Winchester as fast, or even faster, than the 220 Swift. The throat is fine. You can do the same thing as I did to the 220 Swift, to a 22-250, as the powder capacity is close, with the 220 Swift on average about 150 FPS faster than a 22-250. I have even seen 223 Remingtons with the throat shot out, when doing rapid fire target shooting, or shooting varmints in locations like a prarie dog town.

These days, barrel steel is better, especially the stainless steels, and so long as you are smarter than I was, a 220 Swift or a 22-250 will last forever, properly loaded and maintained.

Since the chamber diameter is pretty much the same regardless of the barrels style or taper (the diameter of the chamber end of the barrel is determined by the action, you have to have the right diameter to screw into the action), barrel weight/taper does not have as much to do with barrel wear as you might imagine. You MIGHT be able to make the case that a straight taper barrel is a better heat sink. But the diameter at the end of the chamber and the throat will be close to the same regardless of the taper, because of where the taper starts. The reason bench rest shooters use heavy straight taper barrels isn't wear, it is stiffness.

Certain types of powder will make the wear problem worse as well. And the slower the powder the worse the wear.

The reason you don't see it too much in the M-16/AR-15 family as the popularity of chrome lined barrels on those rifles.

We use 44 Magnum and 45 Colt lever guns on brown and black bear (mostly black bear) around here (we often use handguns on both bear and boar). We've looked at going to Alaska to hunt really BIG bear, like Kodiak. If we go, I'll likely get a 50 Alaskan lever gun. I prefer large heavy bullets at medium velocity for use on really big game, because they break large bones and continue to penetrate. I'm not that big on 458 Winchester or those type rounds, and I really don't like larger bolt guns for that type hunting. I'd much rather have a fast handling 50 caliber lever gun with 5-7 rounds than a slower bolt gun with 3.
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Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2006, 06:52:21 PM »
I just love my Sigarms SHR-970 in 30-06.  Already got a deer with it.  It had a soother action than all, except a Weatherby.

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Offline fartwinkle

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« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2006, 08:12:45 PM »
This is a repost from a chap in another forum but he does a better job explaining it than i do.


The 5000 or 1500 round count is more of a "life expectancy" issue than an absolute maximum. For example... It has long been SOP for military armorers to use a throat erosion gauge to determine if a barrel should be replaced. If the throat reading off the gauge is grater than 5 and the "No Go" muzzle gauge drops in the bore, that barrel comes off and is replaced.

Other variables are the type of loading you are feeding the rifle. Light bullets, light powder charge means light pressure. Heavy bullets, heavy powder charge means high pressure. One will erode a barrel faster than the other. How do you shoot? Do you shoot 20 round strings in under 5 minutes all day long, or allow the barrel to cool between each shot. Are you shooting in a desert where prairie dust and sand blow in the bore or in a milder climate without that. These variables will mean that two shooters with identical equipment will yield different results.

So, if you add up your rounds in the log book and see that your round count is fast approaching the end of the line number, and the rifle is still shoots sub 1/2 MOA, keep shooting it until you notice the groups beginning to spread open. Just so long as we are not talking about a duty weapon. I remember reading someone's post where they spent extra money on a particular makers barrel ( I don't remember who's ) But the were getting 8,000 or 10,000 round of 308 out of them. Wow... I have never had a barrel last that long.

Its kind of like buying a new car, you are supposed to get 10 years out of it. However - some never make it half that long. Others press on long after that. The 1977 Chevy 3/4 ton is fine for work around the farm, but I don't trust it to drive across the country on vacation. But military and police organizations like hard numbers. That's why Navy Aircraft Carrier crews dump their arrestor cables overboard after they have snagged 100 landing aircraft. Could they last longer? Most likely. Is it worth loosing a 32 Million dollar aircraft and trained air crew over the 25 dollar cable? No. Same principle if a police sharpshooter or if a major competition competitor puts a round where its NOT supposed to go.

If innocent lives or duty depends on your rifle. Pay heed to the round count rule. If you shoot for fun, shoot until the groups open past your "acceptable" point. Now, those are facts. Not opinion

Offline fartwinkle

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« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2006, 08:20:15 PM »
12 reasons to go with a 308win



1.) The above will be capable of making about 90% of all shots required.
2.) The 308 is the most researched cartridge on the planet.
3.) The cost of .308 Match grade ammo will not jeopardize the mortgage.
4.) .300 Mag ammo is moderately more expensive.
5.) .338 Lapua ammo is over Sixty Dollars a box of 20 rounds!
6.) Barrel life is 5000 rounds as opposed to 1500 rounds.
7.) The 308 is very capable to 1000 yards
8.) Few shooters have access to a range greater than 1000 yards
9.) Most shots are at ranges less than 1000 yards
10.) 308 Ammo is easily found at most stores.
11.) Military surplus 308 is readily available. Including match.
12.) You can easily find 308 data on ANY shooting scenario.
13.) The US Army and USMC both view the 308 as the most practical sniping cartridge
14.) If the target is less than 1200 yards away and you cant hit it, its the shooter, not the cartridge.
15.) You can fire a 308 all day and not look & feel like you were in a boxing match.