Author Topic: If Iwo Jima happened today .........  (Read 1207 times)

Offline Fishu

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
If Iwo Jima happened today .........
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2006, 11:32:23 PM »
In WWII there was an army to fight against, an army that was a direct threat to the USA and allies - It had to be dealt with to end the war.
The army in Iraq dissapeared in the first few days of the war - a war is still going on, with more casualties than in the war.

Not a big wonder which one causes more complaining.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2006, 11:36:44 PM by Fishu »

Offline Rolex

  • AH Training Corps
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3285
If Iwo Jima happened today .........
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2006, 12:42:26 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
The US used some clever stunts to stay off uneccesary casualties. Island "hopping" meant that you would only capture the key island and leave the others alone. But with IWO there was no option.


Yes, there was an option after the debacle was over.
Iwo Jima had no strategic purpose and food and supplies were cut off to the Japanese troops there. The options at the time under consideration were to either:

1. Court martial the people who stubbornly turned a meaningless island into a meatgrinder, or...

2. Turn it into a patriotic public relations campaign.

Court martialing would not bring back the dead or reattach arms and legs, so the latter was chosen. Even Truman marveled at the Marines' ability to  muster such a successful public relations effort.

The reason for 'needing' Iwo Jima was framed (after it was over and Congress was looking for scalps) as necessary to provide an emergency landing site for damaged B-29s returning from sorties over Japan. No battle-damaged airplane ever landed there.

Quote
Rough estimate - US and UK servicemen dead 1 million plus, japanese soldiers 1-2 millions plus, japanese civilians 3-4 millions plus. Something like that. No wonder they went to the nuke - but wonder what the news would say...


Well, the media indeed questioned where this 1 million casualty number came from, but soon the myth took on a life of its own.

There is not one study, analysis, estimate, document or quote by any general or admiral who ever said, or even thought that. Truman made it up on the spur of a moment during a speech and the myth has perpetuated to this day.

Offline FiLtH

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6448
If Iwo Jima happened today .........
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2006, 01:03:41 AM »
"No battle-damaged airplane ever landed there."

 huh?

~AoM~

Offline ChickenHawk

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1010
If Iwo Jima happened today .........
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2006, 01:30:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rolex
Yes, there was an option after the debacle was over.
Iwo Jima had no strategic purpose and food and supplies were cut off to the Japanese troops there. The options at the time under consideration were to either:

1. Court martial the people who stubbornly turned a meaningless island into a meatgrinder, or...

2. Turn it into a patriotic public relations campaign.

Court martialing would not bring back the dead or reattach arms and legs, so the latter was chosen. Even Truman marveled at the Marines' ability to  muster such a successful public relations effort.

The reason for 'needing' Iwo Jima was framed (after it was over and Congress was looking for scalps) as necessary to provide an emergency landing site for damaged B-29s returning from sorties over Japan. No battle-damaged airplane ever landed there.


I would have to respectfully disagree with you.  I'm not sure where you’re getting your information but from what I've read, it was a very important strategic location.  It was the closest island to Japan from the east capable of supporting runways big enough for B-29's.  And I've seen pictures of battle damaged B-29's at Iwo.  One published source I've read said that 2400 American airmen made emergency landings at Iwo Jima.

But my question to you would be, if it wasn't a strategic location, then why did the defenders fight so tenaciously for it?
Do not attribute to malice what can be easily explained by incompetence, fear, ignorance or stupidity, because there are millions more garden variety idiots walking around in the world than there are blackhearted Machiavellis.

Offline lasersailor184

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8938
If Iwo Jima happened today .........
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2006, 01:37:27 AM »
Quote
2400 American airmen made emergency landings at Iwo Jima


2400 american planes made emergency landings.  That's a lot more then 2400 men.
Punishr - N.D.M. Back in the air.
8.) Lasersailor 73 "Will lead the impending revolution from his keyboard"

Offline Rolex

  • AH Training Corps
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3285
If Iwo Jima happened today .........
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2006, 04:49:46 AM »
Wow, did I write that? Sorry, a first-class mistake on my part. It was about 2,200 planes iirc, in total that landed there. Most were usual mechanical failures, but that is not relevant.

The debate at the time was that the Japanese were running out of food fast, and a few weeks of air and ship bombardment might have meant substantially less casualties. I think US casualties were about 38,000 and that was a huge shock to Washington.

Offline Gunslinger

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10084
If Iwo Jima happened today .........
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2006, 06:33:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
weeks in the battle of Okinawa.
IIIIIIIIII
Weeks in the invasion of Iraq.
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII III
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIII

How much suport do you think the Invasion of Okinawa would have had if it stretched half way to the Korean war with no end in sight.
And no Japanese were ever found there?


You are dead wrong.

Invasion of Iraq:
II

The occupation has lasted as long as you say, but let's compare apples to apples.  

Rolex,
24,000 airman owe their lives to the emergancy strip at Iwo.

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
If Iwo Jima happened today .........
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2006, 08:57:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rolex
Yes, there was an option after the debacle was over.
Iwo Jima had no strategic purpose and food and supplies were cut off to the Japanese troops there. The options at the time under consideration were to either:

1. Court martial the people who stubbornly turned a meaningless island into a meatgrinder, or...

2. Turn it into a patriotic public relations campaign.

Court martialing would not bring back the dead or reattach arms and legs, so the latter was chosen. Even Truman marveled at the Marines' ability to  muster such a successful public relations effort.

The reason for 'needing' Iwo Jima was framed (after it was over and Congress was looking for scalps) as necessary to provide an emergency landing site for damaged B-29s returning from sorties over Japan. No battle-damaged airplane ever landed there.



Well, the media indeed questioned where this 1 million casualty number came from, but soon the myth took on a life of its own.

There is not one study, analysis, estimate, document or quote by any general or admiral who ever said, or even thought that. Truman made it up on the spur of a moment during a speech and the myth has perpetuated to this day.


Rolex, you have at times enlightened me before on subjects that would otherwize not have gotten a second thought. Could this be one of those times?

My father in law; now pushing into his eighties was a gun director on a Tin Can in the pacific. His view 'We had our tulips kicked at Okinawa' flew in the face of 'history' 40 years ago when I heard him describe it; it meshes TODAY with what I've been able to discover.

Now this view of yours regarding Iwo.... I gotta confess, I'm less pre-disposed than ever to just buy into WWII era battle propaganda but what your touting really flies in the face of currently accepted pacific battle dogma as we know it today.

Here's how I understood Iwo Jimas significance:

Air Power. B-29 strikes out of China against Japan; logistics, range and losses- the Air Force needed to stage and strike from the south rather than the west. After the capture of the Mariana Islands, the US 20th Air Force could mount a large-scale campaign against the industrial centres of Japan. The only obstacle to this was the strategically important island of Iwo Jima that housed two airfields, with a third under construction, as well as a radar station that could give up to two hours warning of an impeding raid. The Air Force needed to eliminate the fighter threat to their bombers and neutralise the radar station there. The island would also be useful as a refuge for damaged aircraft returning from raids, as a base for air-sea rescue flying boats and for P-51 long-range fighters to escort the B-29 bombers. On 3rd October 1944, the Joint Chiefs of Staff issued a directive to Admiral Nimitz to take Iwo Jima.

In carefully evaluating a map of the Pacific, considering where American forces were at the time and the end-game invasion of Japan warplan, Iwo does not appear to be anything other than what we've been taught it was... Necessary. I've never once heard it mentioned that Iwo was a strategic blunder, never heard it mentioned that Iwo did not serve as a forward base for bomber escorts or a recovery point for damaged B-29's, never heard it suggested before that these two crucial logistical elements were 'unnecessary' or 'not worth the cost'.

To this point, as far as I was aware, the biggest 'controversy' regarding Iwo was in the flag rasising.. myth and facts; there were two flags raised.. a small battle flag, later a larger replacement. War-Time reports and photo's overlooked the earlier flag and the hero's that raised it. Our Marine Memorial and the famous Rosenthal Photo capture the second flag going up.

There was no small amount of consternation over the truth when it was published; debate still goes on about this and I look forward to the movies treatment of the truth surrounding the incident... but Rolex, what your talking about goes so far beyond what we've all come to see Iwo as that I gotta beg... what are your sources?
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline ChickenHawk

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1010
If Iwo Jima happened today .........
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2006, 10:37:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
2400 american planes made emergency landings.  That's a lot more then 2400 men.


Apologies, you are correct.  It was 2400 B-29's with 27,000 crewmen who used the Iwo Jima airbases after the capture.
Do not attribute to malice what can be easily explained by incompetence, fear, ignorance or stupidity, because there are millions more garden variety idiots walking around in the world than there are blackhearted Machiavellis.

Offline mauser

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 541
If Iwo Jima happened today .........
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2006, 11:17:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ChickenHawk
Apologies, you are correct.  It was 2400 B-29's with 27,000 crewmen who used the Iwo Jima airbases after the capture.


Everytime I come across figures like these from WWII it still shocks me.  Two-thousand four hundred sorties with twenty seven thousand crew.  Thousands of casualties in the span of a few weeks for each island hop.  That's just in the Pacific too.

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20385
If Iwo Jima happened today .........
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2006, 12:32:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rolex
the Marines' ability to  muster such a successful public relations effort.

The reason for 'needing' Iwo Jima was framed (after it was over and Congress was looking for scalps) as necessary to provide an emergency landing site for damaged B-29s returning from sorties over Japan. No battle-damaged airplane ever landed there.


Late to the party but how many photos of battle damaged B29s that landed on Iwo do you want to see?

They sure didn't seem to mind the Mustangs of the 15th, 21st and 506th Fighter Groups that escorted the B29s that were based on Iwo either.  Throw in the P61s and the P47Ns based there as well along with ASR birds that supported the 29s.

First damaged B29 landed on the strip at Iwo while the shooting was still going on.
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
If Iwo Jima happened today .........
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2006, 03:13:26 PM »
Was gonna say that Guppy!
The first one landed actually, while there was fighting going on around the island. And there were many to come, as well as other sorts of aircraft.
Then there is the factor of Iwo being disabled as an airbase for interceptors.
Rolex, - better read up a bit.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
If Iwo Jima happened today .........
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2006, 03:14:38 PM »
Oh, and here is the best part.
The last Japanese on Iwo surrendered in 1949....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Yeager

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10167
If Iwo Jima happened today .........
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2006, 05:17:32 PM »
this thread has quickly turned into a super tall stupid tree and Im having hellfun watching some of you dorks fall hard and fast hitting every branch on the way down :rofl
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline Rolex

  • AH Training Corps
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3285
If Iwo Jima happened today .........
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2006, 08:47:56 PM »
Guppy and Angus: You are correct and I apologized for the mistake in a later post. I was going to look up the number of planes landing there and put, "No" as a place keeper until I looked it up. I couldn't remember how many at the time, and "No" seemed funny to me at the time. I got distracted and accidentally submitted it.

I did not say that this debate over the strategy used at Iwo Jima, or the measure of its importance, was my opinion, or that I agreed with all of it. There were people who disagreed with the strategy at the time. Some were using Iwo Jima as a call for elevating Gen. MacArthur to run the entire Pacific war, saying that under his leadership, better use of resources would reduce casualties and be more effective.

There was debate in Washington about court martials over what was perceived as a stubborn refusal to rethink the plan after the strength of the Japanese positions was known after the first assaults on the beach. There is a good case made that it could have been delayed a few weeks and larger scale bombing and more naval bombardment used to substantially reduce the Japanese capability and US casualties. Naval bombardment was for 3 days prior to landing - woefully too short.

There was criticism that Adm. Spruance failed to make it clear that the defense of Iwo Jima was nothing close to estimates and was politically unable to sell the need for more support. There were conflicting priorites between Gen. Arnold and Adm. Spruance. Gen. Arnold and Gen. Lemay were fixated on firebombing Tokyo and Yokohama and those raids occurred while the battle on Iwo Jima was still raging. Some said it was great for publicity, but killing Japanese soldiers and reducing capability on Iwo Jima would have saved more American lives than killing 100,000+ civilians in Tokyo did.

The courage of those landing on Iwo Jima was beyond words, especially since it was soon known that 1/3 would not make out of there unhurt. Even though the US outnumbered the Japanese 2:1, one American was killed or wounded for each Japanese defender killed. Securing Guam and the Mariannas was not easy, but far easier than Iwo Jima, and the lack of flexible thinking when faced with the Iwo Jima resistance and underestimation of Japanese forces is a common point used by those who analyze the past to make better decisions and be better leaders in the future.

It should be noted that the statistics about 'emergency' landings at Iwo Jima were part and parcel of a campaign to justify the human costs of the battle - after the battle was over and criticism began about the strategy.

The sole reason used by the planners of the Iwo Jima invasion was to seize the airstrips for use by long-range fighter escort for B-29s over Japan. The problem here is that only P-51s had that range - as long as they flew there, turned around and came straight back. There would be no fuel to engage any targets. Plus, pressurized B-29s flew too high for P-51 pilots to withstand the physical stress of 1,500 mile unheated, unpressurized flights at 30K.

Only 10 escort missions were ever launched from Iwo Jima before they were stopped.

They used all landings in the statistics and most were not 'emergency' landings where the crew faced certain death if they didn't land at Iwo Jima. Training missions, scheduled refueling stops and even layovers waiting for weather problems over Japan are included in the 2,2,00+ bomber landing statistic.

Saying 22,000 flyers owe their life to Iwo Jima is a fallacy. But, it sounded good and was, and still is, easily picked up and spread since it is almost as many as the Marine casualties on Iwo Jima. But, one cannot compare lives of one branch against lives of another as valid, even if it were true.

To Hangtime: I appreciate your intelligence to understand that I look beyond the obvious and dig toward the 'whys' of events or people. I, like you, may not always agree, but listening and weighing a variety of views cannot hurt us, it only makes us stronger.

This topic is still discussed today at the USNA and at the Naval War College. Not surprisingly, most start out with the obvious opinion we have all been led to believe from high school history texts, but, over time, they begin to understand the need to be critical in order to improve. One common result is that they reluctantly agree that very basic mistakes were made, but the net overall result that the patriotic images of sacrifice we live with today have unmeasurable value.

Here are 2 interesting sources.
"The Ghosts of Iwo Jima" by Robert S. Burrell (He is a former Marine officer and history instructor at the USNA)
"The Journal of Military History,"