Author Topic: Hitech- Explain Dive Flaps modeling  (Read 1005 times)

Offline Pooface

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Hitech- Explain Dive Flaps modeling
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2006, 11:12:49 AM »
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Originally posted by Casper1
vewwy interesting thread going on here!



yeah, its a shame we dont see any intelligent discussions like this anymore

Offline 38ruk

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Hitech- Explain Dive Flaps modeling
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2006, 04:21:28 PM »
Thx Widewing , im going to get the JFC Report ordered . Now about the compressibility issue ,  I have the chart thats printed in Bodies book . Basically it uses a .68 mach number from 30k to sea level .

Looking at the mach numbers in text on page 76-77  , it show a buffet developed at M= 0.675 with 1G of acceleration , at higher accelerations , buffet was encountered at a lower M= number. Shortly after buffet was encountered, the diving tendency (tuck) started . This tendency reached it's zeinth at M=0.74 .

My question is , what is the zeinth that is being referred to ?  Is it complete lock of control surfaces , or is it the nose actually trying to tuck under ?

I know this has to be a hard thing to get modeled in a game , but has HTC ever stated what was used as data for the Mach numbers?  I would like to find out what kind of test data would be needed to have them take a look at this issue again .  

                                      Thx for the replys , 38maw

Offline Ack-Ack

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Hitech- Explain Dive Flaps modeling
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2006, 09:02:27 PM »
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Originally posted by Pooface
yeah, its a shame we dont see any intelligent discussions like this anymore



actually surprised there isn't a 100 page dissertation by Kweassa with his usual rants about the P-38 flaps.



ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
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Offline Krusty

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Hitech- Explain Dive Flaps modeling
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2006, 09:43:07 PM »
Suggestion: Maybe different reports are talking about different things.

Maybe the reports of "No compressability below 25,000 feet" are talking about total, complete, lockout of elevator control no matter what.

Maybe the first-hand reports of ww2 p38 vets that talked to HiTech were not totally locked out, but were so steep and fast that they still could not pull up in time (or, "barely in time" for the pilot telling the tale, and "not in tie" for his wingmen that crashed).

So, while in AH we get stiffening of the controls, you can still pull up and get out of it, whereas perhaps the tests are talking about a situation where nothing can get you out.

Offline 38ruk

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Hitech- Explain Dive Flaps modeling
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2006, 12:06:38 AM »
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whereas perhaps the tests are talking about a situation where nothing can get you out



The test were done by humans , alot were done by Burcham and LeVier. Test showing that nothing could be done to get you out would effectively be committing suicide for the test pilots . IIRC full scale wind tunnels at the time couldnt produce the kind of speeds that would simulate
compressibilty .

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Hitech- Explain Dive Flaps modeling
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2006, 02:02:32 AM »
LeVier could dive a P-38 and recover while hitting speeds high enough to take panels off the plane.

What several pilots told me is that most of the compression losses were actually from guys trying to see what happened when you deliberately pushed past what the placard said. Meaning few accidentally compressed and couldn't recover. They also said that many times the failure to recover was evidently due to the fact that pilots panicked and didn't know what to do. The yoke would literally beat the crap out of you.

The compression losses during testing were most often due to failure of abused parts.

Kelly Johnson said he was certain a spring tab operating link failure is what actually killed Ralph Virden. It allowed the travel limit to be exceeded and snapped the tail off because the stress exceeded 9G, and Johnson said it may have exceeded 15G. The part that failed was designed to increase the leverage the pilot could apply to the elevator in order to effect a pullout. Virden was warned to be careful at low altitudes and high speeds, as he could easily exceed the design limits. At around 3000 feet and over 300MPH, Johnson said that the link broke, and allowed the elevator to go to full deflection. The plane Virden was in was the first YP-38, and the one with the most hours. It had for a while been the only one flying, and as such had logged a great number of hours. It was then committed to the dive and compressibility tests, after several more "Yippees" became available for other testing.

When Ben Kelsey lost a P-38 in dive testing it was because the flap lever failed. This plane was old and had suffered through a great deal of testing. Kelsey was able to get out, where as Virden could not, and Kelsey survived.

The truth about the wind tunnel was that NACA felt the speeds would wreck their wind tunnel. It could generate the speeds.

From Kelly Johnson's notes on the P-38 and compression:

At Mach .65, drag increases violently as a shock wave formed on the wing center section

At Mach .675 buffeting develops, and shortly after Mach tuck (diving tendency) begins. The tendnecy peaks at Mach .74.

For a number of reasons, it was virtually impossible to encounter compressibility tuck in any P-38 types if the dive was entered at 25,000 feet or less. Numerous flight tests by LeVier, Burcham, and Mattern confirmed that.
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Offline 38ruk

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Hitech- Explain Dive Flaps modeling
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2006, 01:35:52 PM »
I believe the 8 foot wind tunnel was capabile of the speeds , the full scale one wasnt. Ive read where the Naca was scared of damaging their tunnel , im not sure which one they were referring to .