A question for Christians

[Kieran]

Well, Hang... I thought you were just taking your jab. Didn't know you were serious.

Let me answer your question with a question: show me the reference where it states that infants that die are damned.

Here's a little something I dug up:

 

But a deeper question remains.  What happens to the baby at death?  
Many years ago, there was a man named Augustine.  He held to a view that
led people to conclude that all babies are born in sin.  I have a book
in my library that is very old.  It is the 1902 edition of the Methodist
Discipline.  On the article entitled "Of Original or Birth Sin," it
reads:
 
"Original sin standeth not in the following of Adam (as the
Pelagians do vainly talk), but it is the corruption of the nature of
every man, that naturally is engendered of the offspring of Adam,
whereby man is very far gone from original righteousness, and of his own
nature inclined to evil, and that continually."  (Page 5).  This is why
infant  baptism is administered -- at  z84 least why it was originally
administered.  Again from the same book we read the minister's words
which must be used when administering baptism to an infant.  It reads:
"Dearly beloved, forasmuch as all men are conceived and born in
sin, and that our Saviour Christ saith, Except a man be born of water
and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God: I beseech
you to call upon God the Father, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that of
his bounteous goodness he will grant to this child, now to be baptized
with water, that which by nature he cannot have: that he may be baptized
with the Holy Ghost, received into Christ's holy Church, and be made a
lively member of the same."  (Page 219).

This is an ancient book -- it was written back in 1902 and stated
the view that since babies are born in sin they must be baptized in
order to have their corrupt nature removed.  An old New England Psalter
(or prayer and hymn book) has the line: "In Adam's fall, we sinned all."  
This is the theory known as total, inherited depravity.  It opines that
since Adam and Eve fell by transgression in the Garden of Eden, all who
are born are born depraved, regardless of how good and holy their
parents may have been.  What is called the "Adamic Nature" is
transferred to the child at birth just the same way its little traits
peculiar to it are given.

The truth about babies is that this doctrine is simply not true.  
To offset the hideous doctrine that little babies are born as sinners we
have but to turn to the New Testament and read something about Christ
and little ones.  One time when Jesus was teaching the people, a few of
the mothers in the crowd brought their little babies to Him just so He
could touch them.  Listen to the passage -- Mark 10:13-16.
"Then they brought young children to Him, that He might touch them;
but the disciples rebuked those who brought them.  But when Jesus saw
it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, 'Let the little children
come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.  
Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as
a little child will by no means enter it.'  And He took them up in His
arms, put His hands on them and blessed them."
 
That is sufficient to show clearly that babies are brought into
this world pure and sinless.  God's kingdom is to be filled with the
quality one finds in children.  That means that the kingdom of God must
be filled with those who trust and love the Lord -- not those born in
sin.
 
Another passage clearly refutes the absurd notion that children
come into the world guilty of the sins of someone else.  Listen:
"The soul who sins shall die.  The son shall not (did you get that
friends?) shall not (I repeat) bear the guilt of the father, nor the
father bear the guilt of the son.  The righteousness of the righteous
shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon
himself" (Ezekiel 18:20.
 
There is a good story that helps explain all of this.  It happened
to a man named Alexander Campbell.  He was a young man preaching in
Virginia in the early 1800's and was trying to restore, to the best of
His ability, the preaching and practices of Christ and His apostles.  He
determined not to  be bound by  z84 human disciplines and creeds, just
by the Bible itself.  He was challenged by a Baptist preacher to
publicly debate the issue of infant baptism.  At the time he was a
member of the Presbyterian church.  The Presbyterians adopted the
practice of infant baptism being performed by sprinkling water on the
child a long time before that and Campbell has accepted it without
question.  Campbell quickly signed the propositions to defend the
Presbyterian practice of infant baptism by sprinkling.  The debate,
however, never was held.  Mr. Campbell went to the Bible to find some
scriptural justification for the practice and found none.  In addition
he found no basis for it since he learned quickly that the Bible does
not teach that all children are born in sin.
 

[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: Kieran ]

[Hangtime]

The Bible is such a gargantuan collection of conflicting values that anyone can prove or disprove anything from it.

Explain Bapitsism. Original Sin. Limbo and Purgatory.

Is it not Christian dogma to damn an unbaptised infant to hell or it's nether regions?

Why the fancy dancing??

Theologians are never any help; they all continiously search in a dark cellar at midnight for a black cat that isn't there.

Religion is sometimes a source of happiness, and I would not deprive anyone of happiness. The great trouble with religion - any religion - is that a religionist, having accepted certain propositions by faith, cannot thereafter judge those propositions by evidence. One may bask at the warm fire of faith or choose to live in the bleak certainty of reason- but one cannot have both.

I choose reason.

[Kieran]

So you admit you can't prove your point in scripture? You want to put me in the position of explaining an accusation you can't even substantiate?

Fancy dancing? I don't know what you mean, but that is twice in this thread I have been accused of avoiding questions I have answered. I don't know of any scripture that states that unborn children or infants that die are damned to hell. If you can provide such a reference I would be happy to discuss it with you.

I can't comment on purgatory or limbo as my religion doesn't include those concepts.

As for the other comments, you have stated you feel the Bible can be used to argue any point, so what should I say to you?

C'mon guys, if you want to talk about it, let's talk about it. What I am not about to do is to walk through 2,500 pages, page-by-page, disputing every single seeming conflict.

One thing I don't have to have faith about- that is the hand of God touched me, physically. I have felt it, it was undeniable. You may attempt to explain that away for me too, but I know what happened.

And you are so wrong about those of faith not examining beliefs. That is a stereotype perpetuated by unbelievers. How is one to avoid false prophets? How can one identify what is wrong or right? You and others suggest that to be a Christian means to turn your mind off. Statements like that tell me you have no idea what a Christian really is.

[Hangtime]

Living your beliefs takes courage.. I envy your divinity, having been touched by the hand of God.

I also live my beliefs, and while I do not believe in an all-knowing, all-seeing, all powerful Christian Dogma defined Diety, I do believe you to be a good person attempting to do good works.

Which changes not the reality that almost any organized sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics.

Sectarian interpetations of the works that comprise the bible, in all its forms begat and continiues to beget senseless violence; hatred and absurdities that are an affront to reason and reality.

Yes; I know what it is to be a Christian.. like you; I was raised as one. How very odd that you should say that.

[leonid]

I apologize for starting this thread.  It was not my intention for it to go in this direction.

 

[Kieran]

No anger here, Leonid. I feel I have upset a couple of the guys here perhaps, but I am not upset.

Hangtime, I was raised an atheist. I always sensed something was wrong with my life, and I found the answer in Christianity. When I came to the decision to follow Christ it was like -*BOOM*- rapture. I wish I could extend that experience to anyone who doubts.

I can't condemn anyone for not following the same path, that isn't for me to do. I find it surprising the three people that have debated religion with me on this BBS have all come from religious backgrounds. That you have all turned against religion is interesting.

[Sandman]

I have one reason for turning my back on Christianity. It never felt honest. I went through the motions. I tried to believe it and I finally admitted to myself that I just couldn't buy into it. (It took me twenty years to say that.)

I've found one thing. True believers, the one's that don't need consensus or agreement from me are a joy to be around, no matter what their religion is.

[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: Sandman_SBM ]

[dtango]

Wow.  I was going to comment a day or 2 ago.  Didn't realize that it got so heated.

Mr.Fish & Hangtime my I suggest the following books- Strobel's book (already mentioned), The Case for Christ is a good one.  I think also good is C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity.  Very heavy reading.  It should be noted that both Strobel and Lewis were Aetheists at one point in their lives before becoming Christians.

First let me state that I'm definitely not the end-all be-all Christian apologetic.  There will be hard questions that I won't be able to answer now...maybe never.

I wrestled with formulating some appropriate responses but it is taking much more effort to put it all together. So I humbly bring a few thoughts to the discussion complements of C.S. Lewis.  Perhaps it will whet your appetite to read Mere Christianity.  It is impossible for me to do a treatise of C.S. Lewis' work and much better for you to dive into it yourself.

Here are some tidbits-

   

These, then are the two points I wanted to make.  First that human beings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain way, and cannot really get rid of it.  Secondly, that they do not in fact behave in that way.  They know the Law of Human Nature; they break it.

   

...Christianity simply does not make sense until you have faced the sort of facts I have been describing.  Christiantiy tells people to repent and promises them forgiveness.  It therefore has nothing (as far as I know) to say to people who do not know they have done anything to repent of and who do not feel they need any forgiveness.  It is after you have realised that there is a real Moral Law, and Power behind that law, and that you have broken that law and put yourself wrong with that Power - it is after all this, and not a moment sooner, that Christianity begins to talk.

   

My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust.  But how had I got this idea of just and unjust?  A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line.  What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?....Of course I could have given up my idea of justice by saying it was nothing but a private idea of my own.  But if I did that, then my argument against God collapsed too - for the argument depended on the saying that the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my private fancies.  Thus in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist - in other words, that the whole reality was senseless - I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality - namely my idea of justice - was full of sense.  Consequently atheism turns out to be far too simple.

Forgive me for not answering your questions.  Kieran has tried and I look forward to what Greese's responds with.  I believe Mr. Lewis does a wonderful job of delving into some really deep questions and issues.  After all, I believe that God did give us brains to reason with    .

Kieran, Greese, hblair, et al others I've missed- good to see other disciples of the Way here   .

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: dtango ]

[Kieran]

Thanks for the quotes, Dtango. Certainly is another perspective.

Hey, I dropped a star! Guess I've come on strong, eh?  

[dtango]

Don't know- perhaps.  I've lost a star as well for other things   (though wasn't sure why!).  Just means that their are differences of perspectives between people.

[Hangtime]

No anger here either... and I salute your courage and faith. I've determined that living life with an open mind, particularly when it comes to matters of religious faith; is preferable to the contrary. In pursuit of that... I always ask questions. My apologies for any angst.

"...and who knows... perhaps the horse will someday learn to sing."

<S>

[buhdman]

My philosophy is simple:

"Your religion is none of my business -- please keep it that way!"

I think that about says all I want to say on the subject.

[elstevie]

Psalms 83:18

[Sundog]

I'm actually a zetetic..not that that matters (Just for the record). I want to say I have really enjoyed this thread for all POV's provided. It get's a little testy at times, but for a Religious discussion, I think you guys have been treating each other with more respect then I normally see in these discussions(The key I think). <S!> to you guys.

My question, which sort of ties in with what Leonid started this thread with is, doesn't the Bible state that 'Vengeance is the purview of Heaven, not of man.' I'm not sure on the exact quote, perhaps some of you know the exact quote? I am just curious as to the context within which it was placed and what exactly the quote is. Thanks.

[Sandman]

King James Version Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

 

King James Version Psalms 94:1 O LORD God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself.

Try http://bible.crosswalk.com/

[ 08-04-2001: Message edited by: Sandman_SBM ]