Slobodan Milosevic

[Vad]

Originally posted by mietla
No surpise here. I agree with DMF as well.

Boroda,

explain to us how all those purges in the 30-ties that killed most (if not all) experienced, top level military commanders (many of them most revered heroes of the revolution and unquestionably extremely able military commanders) were good for the USSR.

We all know why it was beneficial for Stalin so you can skip that part. Please concentrate on a benefit to the nation and its people.

It is a good question, Mielta. Actually, even now historians argue about that.
If there was somebody on this board who would really want to understand what happened in the USSR in 20s - 40s we would be pleased to discuss it. Unfortunatelly, our Western friends think that they know history of Russia better than we. It is funny to hear about history of my country from those who know this history from newspaper articles but... ok.

About your question. On the first glance it looks obvious that execution of the top commanders can't be good for any army. But if we look in deep it happens to be a little more complicated.

To understand that you have to remind that repressions of 30s were going under the banner of fighting with Trotskyism and Trotsky. Trotsky was the leader of Red Army in the Civil War, person who actually won that war. Top military commanders were those who fought together with Trotsky, they belived him, and they would go after him in Hell or Haven. When Stalin deported Trotsky from the USSR, and later executed most of his supporters like Zinoviev, Kamenev, etc. top leaders of Army became dangerous for him.

Ok, now more interesting question: who was better - Stalin or Trotsky? What would happen if Trotsky won, and Stalin lost. What would happen if Stalin was estranged, and Trotsky headed the USSR.

Few pointings:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trotskyism

Trotskyism is the theory of Marxism as advocated by Leon Trotsky. Trotsky considered himself a Bolshevik-Leninist, arguing for the establishment of a vanguard party. He considered himself an advocate of orthodox Marxism. His politics differed greatly from those of Stalin or Mao, most importantly in declaring the need for an international "permanent revolution".

Do you know what is "permanent revolution"? It is export of reviolution, or, in other words, total war against Western countries. In practice it means Bolshevik hordes in France in the end of 20s-30s. Would it be better?

It was Trotsky who supported collictivization, actually it was his idea. And you know the result - millions starved.

Do you know that Red brigades, Basques in Spain, the most of terroristic organizations in Europe are standing on Trotsky positions? I never heard about Stalin terroristic organizations, may be you did?

[Boroda]

In 1913 Russian Empire had only about 1% of population working in industry. After WWI and especially Civil War the whole country was in ruins. I mean - there was no industry, nothing. In 1927-39 everything was built from nothing, including millions of educated people who were children of illiterate peasants. It's more then a miracle. Then in 1945 we have won the most devastating war in history, the war for survival of the whole nation, and we again had everything in ruins, and lost over 10% of population. By 1947 USSR restored industry to pre-war (1940) level, and in 1957 it launched first sattelite into space. A miracle again. A country where only one out of ten people could read in 1913 - reached such heights, including total literacy, great educational system and healthcare for _everyone_.

That's what I mean by "achieving impossible".

Enough of this, we are not discussing USSR here.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by USHilDvl
Then there's today's revelations...

Seems the prison staff had been complaining, for some time, that he was having drugs and alcohol smuggled in on a regular basis.  The prison warden had written to the UN to advise them of the situation;

Is it true?! It's the most pure nonsence I have read in the last several months. Smuggling alcohol into prison cell! It sounds so idiotic that I don't even want to discuss it.

Originally posted by USHilDvl
So, a 65-year old drinker, with a heart condition, hypertension and elevated stress, who intentionally violates doctor's orders, takes alcohol with prescription meds, self-medicates with illicit and unprescribed compunds and continually manipulates his own health to avoid answering for his actions...

Yup...musta been murdered.  Had to be a conspiracy.  Couldn't have been anything else.  It's the forces of evil trying to hold down a people's hero...a winner.

Do you believe such bull****? Self-medicating in prison! For prisoners of such level - he'll not have a single fly in his cell without permission.

The fact is: he was refused to get proper medical treatment, despite of obvious facts about hos health, visible even to so-called "judges". It killed him. Now tell me who's responsible.

Yes, he committed suicide, my ass! Bloody immoral hypocrites. No moreale, no conscious, abslouely.

Originally posted by USHilDvl
I say...genocidal maniac, who probably got tagged playing a stupid, dangerous and cowardly game.

Again.....Pfffft.   Good riddance.

Again: accusation of genocide was officially removed. By the same bloody "lawers". Now they feel free to accuse him of the things they officially denied themselves. Real Western attitude.

Nazis failed to accuse Dimitrov in 1933, and they had to let him go. Have you ever heard of a Leipzig process? He was allowed to speak free, and he spoke to the press in nazi Germany (!!!). Now we see Miloshevich beating accusations without any problems, and "winning a moral duel" with accusors, so - they simply shut him down, not letting him to speak to media, and then, after accusation completely failed - to justify their own crimes against Serbian people and not to admit that US and NATO openly supported terrorist organisations, bombed civilian objects in Yugoslavia, killed thousands of innocent civilians and supported genocide of Serbs in Kosovo, Srpska Krajna and other places - they let him die, to start repeating the lies they denied themselves several years ago.

Hypocricy and murder. Usual Western method. Genocide as an instrument in international politics. We see it everywhere they interfere.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by mietla
No surpise here. I agree with DMF as well.

Boroda,

explain to us how all those purges in the 30-ties that killed most (if not all) experienced, top level military commanders (many of them most revered heroes of the revolution and unquestionably extremely able military commanders) were good for the USSR.

We all know why it was beneficial for Stalin so you can skip that part. Please concentrate on a benefit to the nation and its people.

****. I explained it many times. "Experienced" top-commanders were absolutely incompetent. They were commanders of irregular partisan squads in Civil War, and ****ed up everything they did in the 30s. Example: accusations against Marshall Bluher, executed in 1939, were based on the fact that during the conflict with Japan in 1938 on lake Hasan, when Soviet troops got severely kicked, he was a commander of Far-East military district, and during all the hostilities was blue from drinking, unable to issue a single order.

All this hype about "purges" was started by the children of "old Bolsheviks", who suddenly turned from predators into prey, instead of killing themselves (and they were responsible for millions of deaths in 1918-1930) they got purged. The hell with them.

Frankly speaking - I am not surprised that I have to explain obvious things.

[skernsk]

Those 'things' may be obvious to you Boroda, but quite frankly the only thing I know is what is written in my history books.  As you are aware, they do not put Mr. Stalin on a pedestal as you do.

From what I know, the man was ruthless, cold hearted and mentally deranged.   Starving millions in the Urkraine, killing those around him who posed a threat, and signing a deal with the mother of all evil people, Mr. Hitler.  I am sure you are aware the many of the Luftwaffe pilots trained on Russian soil (in secret).  Many of those pilots then turned around and attacked your country ... is that GENIOUS?


You are wasting your breath, as am I.  We won't see eye to eye on the subject or Milosevic or Stalin.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by skernsk
Those 'things' may be obvious to you Boroda, but quite frankly the only thing I know is what is written in my history books.  As you are aware, they do not put Mr. Stalin on a pedestal as you do.

From what I know, the man was ruthless, cold hearted and mentally deranged.   Starving millions in the Urkraine, killing those around him who posed a threat, and signing a deal with the mother of all evil people, Mr. Hitler.  I am sure you are aware the many of the Luftwaffe pilots trained on Russian soil (in secret).  Many of those pilots then turned around and attacked your country ... is that GENIOUS?


You are wasting your breath, as am I.  We won't see eye to eye on the subject or Milosevic or Stalin.

I explained why I think that JVS "achieved impossible".

1) Killing millions in Ukraine: idiotic accusation. Why could he need to kill millions of the second nation in the Union? Mass starvations happened in Russia every 3-5 years. In fact only bolshevks stopped it. Last mass starvation happened in 1947. In 1933 millions also starved in Volga region, does anyone remember it? They were bloody Russians, not Ukrainians, that's why they don't deserve to be mentioned in your history comic-books.

2) Signing a deal with Hitler - only after Western "allies" showed that they don't want to USSR join against Hitler. Read something about Moscow negotiations in August 1939. It's funny, seriously. "Allies" left him no choice. So he preferred 2 more years of peace, plus important technology and weapons in exchange for raw materials that Soviet industry was unable to process. Did you know that Germany sold a heavy cruiser Petropavlovsk, Hipper class, to USSR before the war? It played an important role in defending Leningrad. I bet you didn't know it. No surprise.

3) LW pilots were trained in Lipetsk before 1933. But I think you understand who trained who there. Germany had... hmmm... a little more experience in air combat then Russia. Obvious things again, see? Such things were a part of a miracle I described in previous posts. USSR simply didn't have anything that could help developing in this field. Just in case you don't know - Hitler came to power in 1933, and it was the time when military cooperation with Germany was stopped.

I love this silly discussions. It's like argueing with a 5 years old kid. Common sence and knowledge vs. blind faith and ignorance.

[Vad]

Originally posted by skernsk
... and signing a deal with the mother of all evil people, Mr. Hitler.  

What are interesting history books you have! They know everything about Robbintrop-Molotov pact and know nothing about Munich agreements!

Thanks to Internet, it can be fixed easily:
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWmunich.htm

September 1938, year before Stalin-Hitler pact.
So, who was the first who signed treaty with mother of all evils?

[Boroda]

Vad, Orwell was right. Ignorance is power. Exactly.

[Mighty1]

Originally posted by Boroda
Vad, Orwell was right. Ignorance is power. Exactly.

Then Russia must be the most powerful country in the world!

[skernsk]

Good point.  Chamberlain was a *****.  "there will be peace in our time "

Good thing a real leader, Genius and one who did not kill millions of its own, nor his high ranking military officials took the reins.  Churchill was a leader.

Thanks for the link.  Here are a few for you to read.  

http://www.lewrockwell.com/bresiger/bresiger7.html

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/RUSstalin.htm

http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html< -- 13,000,000 dead, puts your genius at #2 on the list.  


http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine/

[straffo]

Originally posted by skernsk
Good point.  Chamberlain was a *****.  "there will be peace in our time "
 

perhaps had he an non holywood idea of war.

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/titi.nanou/images/poilu.jpg
http://bac.d.free.fr/guerre_14_18/a4_cadavres_de_soldats_francais_et_allemands.JPG
http://www.tnovosel.org/greatwargraphics/bonesatverdun.jpg

[Vad]

Originally posted by skernsk
Good point.  Chamberlain was a *****.  "there will be peace in our time "

Good thing a real leader, Genius and one who did not kill millions of its own, nor his high ranking military officials took the reins.  Churchill was a leader.
 

Ok, at least we have a sign of civilized discussion.
If my memory serves me well you are the first person who have agreed with something we told you. Good sign.

About you links. Actually, it is history of my country, and I know it better than all Western historians taken together. Because I lived there.

I looked through your links.... something right, something arguable, something clear wrong. Actually, it's not so important, it's details. If you wnat to believe in all of that, I won't even argue with you. Suppose that it is all the truth.

If it's all truth   what do you think why nevertheless most of the Russian people consider Stalin as outstanding person, a genuis? You really do believe that we are brainwashed morons who are even in the 21 centures and living in democratic countries can't distinguish between black and white? If yes, there is no subject to talk about, what morons can tell you? If no, any curious person would at least ask: "WHY"? Don't tell us that we are wrong, you can't prove it, but ask why do we think so? Pure curiosity of the people who want to know something new,  not insist on their point of view in anyhow.

[MiloMorai]

I have to have a good laugh about our 2 good Commie friends. They say we know nothing about their history, yet they believe everything that they are told by their instructors about Western history.

[Dowding]

Oh my. Orwell was writing about Stalin! He inspired the man! Where do you think he obtained his ideas about show trials and the 'dummy' reconcilliations?

This is actually a remarkably funny thread.

[Vad]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
I have to have a good laugh about our 2 good Commie friends. They say we know nothing about their history, yet they believe everything that they are told by their instructors about Western history.

Yes, it would be funny if I ever insisted on my view on Western history. I am well-mannered enough to only give you facts about your history (Munich agreements, for example) without my comments.

Evaluation of leaders involved was given by our Western friends, not me.