Author Topic: Why unions still suck (Read 3201 times)

Hangtime · « **Reply #90 on:** March 31, 2006, 04:00:12 PM »

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Originally posted by indy007
Well, being a shareholder of multiple companies, and an evil corporate executive in my own company, maybe I'm looking at it through tinted lenses.

So, I unionized my only employee (me) and ordered a strike. I wandered around in my driveway for a few minutes, got bored, called off the strike, and went back to work. The realization that I was losing money by the second kicked in.

You too? Damn, I negotiated with myself for a pay increase, settled before it went to arbitration and then raised all my prices.

I love America.

GtoRA2 · « **Reply #91 on:** March 31, 2006, 04:57:30 PM »

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Originally posted by Urchin
Sure, and once corporations finally get rid of unions, we can return to the glory days of the late 19th century. Unions won some important concessions that are taken for granted today as "status quo".

Slowly but surely, we are returning to the day of Lassez-Faire capitalism, and I imagine that if there is any coherent form of civilization in a couple hundred years (assuming we "stay the course", your descendants and those of everyone else will be a special sort of "subject" that is so despised on this interesting board o' contradictions.. a McSubject.

But it will be a slow process, corporations will have to buy politicians slowly in the beginning, and continue to crush the spirit and will to resist of the "common man". Medical benefits? Cya. In the near future, the only people that will be able to afford medical care will be the "elite" (corporate officers, CEOs, and their families). 5 days a week, 8 hours a day? Inefficient. Lets try 5 days a week, 10 hours a day, to start. If we still can't "compete", then maybe 6 days, 14 hours. Overtime? How on earth can American corporations compete in a GLOBAL ECONOMY if they have to pay OVERTIME?

In short, the life your grandchildren will live will be nasty, brutish, and short, unless you happen to be a millionaire. But at least "America" will be able to compete, her economy will be stronger than ever, and the wealthiest 1% will be better off than ever before.

But the really awesome thing is that the wealthiest 50% (the "middle class") buys into the idea that the wealthiest 1% will share... lol. The bottom 40% has already been sucked dry by the corporations... to stay competitive they need YOUR wealth (well, your money anyway, since very few people outside of the top 10% have any "wealth").

BS, I have worked in the corporate world a long time. You have no clue.

People have value, they get paid based on that value or they find another company that will pay it. That is why the pay stays fair because if your work is in demand the company better pay you what you want or you will find another company that will.

If your work is not in demand you may need to find a union job or retrain in something that is.

Urchin · « **Reply #92 on:** March 31, 2006, 05:21:48 PM »

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Originally posted by GtoRA2
BS, I have worked in the corporate world a long time. You have no clue.

People have value, they get paid based on that value or they find another company that will pay it. That is why the pay stays fair because if your work is in demand the company better pay you what you want or you will find another company that will.

If your work is not in demand you may need to find a union job or retrain in something that is.

Lol... gee, I can't imagine why you'd disagree with me.

I do agree with one thing you said though... people do have value. Not just the CEOs and their flunkies and their kids.... EVERY person has value. And EVERY person has a right to a job they can support themselves with.

I should probably be amazed that you folks think it is not only OK, but actually RIGHT that someone who was unable/unwilling to be a cog in the corporate machine should be nothing but a wage slave to those who were.

I should be, but I'm not. Everyone needs to feel like they are better than someone, after all.

mietla · « **Reply #93 on:** March 31, 2006, 05:36:03 PM »

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Originally posted by Urchin
EVERY person has value.

Well, every person has "some" value, but every person has a different value. Just because two guys do the same job, does not mean that their value is the same (which you seem to imply).

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Originally posted by Urchin
And EVERY person has a right to a job they can support themselves with.

now this is simply absurd. "Right" to a job? Provided and guaranteed by whom?

You have a right to look for job, change the one you have for a better one, or even create your own job.

But "right to a job"? Where did you get that? Oh, never mind, I know where.

ASTAC · « **Reply #94 on:** March 31, 2006, 05:36:38 PM »

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Originally posted by Sandman
You're underpaid. Bet on it.

Yeah..but I get by alright.

Skuzzy · « **Reply #95 on:** March 31, 2006, 05:38:11 PM »

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Originally posted by Urchin
I should probably be amazed that you folks think it is not only OK, but actually RIGHT that someone who was unable/unwilling to be a cog in the corporate machine should be nothing but a wage slave to those who were.

I should be, but I'm not. Everyone needs to feel like they are better than someone, after all.

Ok, you got me. I cannot even imagine that perspective, let alone come up with something worthwhile to say. What is a 'wage slave'? And why would anyone need to feel better than someone else?

GtoRA2 · « **Reply #96 on:** March 31, 2006, 05:40:45 PM »

See Rule #4

ASTAC · « **Reply #97 on:** March 31, 2006, 05:50:09 PM »

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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Good luck making 20 bucks an hour in a non union shop. Good luck making minimum wage in a nonunion country.

Does a guy on an assembly line who is only skilled in installing one screw in the whole complex contraption called an automobile deserve $20/hr? I think not..sounds like a minimum wage job to me.

Urchin · « **Reply #98 on:** March 31, 2006, 06:00:29 PM »

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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Ok, you got me. I cannot even imagine that perspective, let alone come up with something worthwhile to say. What is a 'wage slave'? And why would anyone need to feel better than someone else?

(From wikipedia)

In terms used by critics of capitalism, wage slavery is the condition where a person must sell his or her labor-power, submitting to the authority of an employer, in order merely to subsist.

That is the definition I prefer.

Because someone doesn't have a college degree, they don't deserve a house, or a car, or all the other things that Americans take for granted today?

How many Chinese or Africans own cars? Or have single family houses?

THAT is the life you want for Americans? Simply because they aren't "good enough" to deserve a house for their family, or a car to get to a job that pays a living wage?

Because that is the life that Americans are going to get, as soon as every "blue collar" job gets outsourced by corporations. Skuzzy, for God's sake.. you work at a company providing a LUXURY GOOD and you think that unions are out to get you? Unions made your job POSSIBLE. Without unions, your customer base would be you, HT, Natedog, Pyro, and Superfly. Oh, and maybe a rich kid or two who's daddy bought him a computer and a subscription. 5,000 people wouldn't HAVE $15 a month to send to you.

Anyway, I'm getting myself all worked up or nothing I suppose. I'll leave you all to your circlejerk.

Urchin · « **Reply #99 on:** March 31, 2006, 06:01:24 PM »

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Originally posted by ASTAC
Does a guy on an assembly line who is only skilled in installing one screw in the whole complex contraption called an automobile deserve $20/hr? I think not..sounds like a minimum wage job to me.

EVERY job in a "non union" country is a "minimum wage" job.

SirLoin · « **Reply #100 on:** March 31, 2006, 06:13:03 PM »

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Originally posted by Urchin
EVERY job in a "non union" country is a "minimum wage" job.

A non-Union country...let's see..

NO restrictions on age/hours worked/enviromental laws/workplace harrasment/wage cuts...etc

No pensions or hopes of making enough dough to raise a family..etc

It really is setting back the working bloke by unilaterally slamming(ranting) on trade unions.

Urchin · « **Reply #101 on:** March 31, 2006, 06:20:25 PM »

Well Sirloin, to a capitalist all of the above fall under the cost of labor, so I guess it is ok to bunch it up into a lump "wage".

And actually, it is possible to raise a family, etc. making very little money, you just can't do it in the fashion that Americans (nor Canadians I'd imagine) are accustomed to. Although one thing that fascinates me (kinda like a train wreck fascination though) is that the American economy is now almost completely a service economy, so the "Blue collar" jobs are no longer in manufacturing, but in lesser paying fields like retail. On top of that... the economy is driven almost entirely (~70%) by consumer spending... the very people that our fellow posters feel do not deserve the basic nescessities.

The only question I have is, once the "average american" (after all, we can't all be the top 1%) cannot afford a house, car, or any other "luxuries"... what is going to keep the U.S. economy going?

WhiteHawk · « **Reply #102 on:** March 31, 2006, 06:51:21 PM »

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Originally posted by Skuzzy

Now, that is not to say some corporations are not evil and plagued with greedy execs. They exist. They exist because people are too weak to just walk out and get another job. who the heck wants to work for some greedy butt head anyways? I sure don't.

And why dont the companies just kick out the greedy floor sweepers and sht shovelers instead of signing on to labor agreements and the wages and benefits that go along with them? Lockouts are a perfectly legal tool in the big corps box. they can use it whenever thye feel like it. The argument that its somehow unfair for a collective bargaining group to strike a company is ludicris. If the sht shovleres can be replaced so easily, then the companies would do it. And should do it.

WhiteHawk · « **Reply #103 on:** March 31, 2006, 06:58:11 PM »

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Originally posted by ASTAC
Does a guy on an assembly line who is only skilled in installing one screw in the whole complex contraption called an automobile deserve $20/hr? I think not..sounds like a minimum wage job to me.

Yea? Unless that screw is the one holding on the airbag acuator assembly in the nose of your familys car. And one goofed screw can cost the company 100 million dollars. Or maybe its the screw on a landing gear of an airplane. Now if its the screw on a dishwasher, thats a 5 dollar per day job and is headed to mexico. If its the screw on a toy,its a 2 dollar per day job and its headed to china. So things are working out well for everybody as we speak.

Chairboy · « **Reply #104 on:** March 31, 2006, 07:28:37 PM »

I've run some of the pro-union posts here through babelfish, fascinating results:

"Rise up, comrades! The proletariat must throw down their tools and face down the bourgeoisie! The dialectic demands it!"

I don't know what it means, but it sure sounds impassioned!