question about merges

[Revor]

Ok whenever I merge with a good pilot that i am fighting They usually go low. If they go low and I stay at the same alt should I go high and try to outclimb him since he lost his E? We were dueling and we had the same E same plane and were at the same alt. Should I climb up if he's going low or extend?

[Ghosth]

Rever

Well I'm NOT bigmax, silat, murdr, soda drano or TC.

ALL of which IMO are better advanced ACM pilots/teachers than me.

However, IMO given same planes, same alt/E states and similar pilot skills. The guy who goes UP on merge will win 9 out of 10 times.
There are exceptions, but a lot of guys blow a lot of E just trying for those first angles or a shot.  I think of merges like tools. You have tight ones going for angles. You have oblique's, low Gee zoom merges, etc.  Which one to use where is part experience,  part reacting to what he did last time, and part pure gut instinct or hunch.

One of the keys in a 1 on 1 situation like that is to learn the other guy.
Learn what to expect, learn what his preferences are. Then turn it around and use them to serve him up on a platter. So if something didn't work the first time, what has a better chance in the next one?

Planes come into it eventually, diff planes have diff capabilitys.
But watching, reading, & learning to anticiapate your opponant is part of the answer. It can be a big part.

Really good pilots will seldom show you the same move twice in a row as a result. They are changing up the pitch so the batter doesn't have time to get used to the pitch. Same for duels in many respects.

A guy who always makes the same merge, down & around tight for angles really isn't that hard to beat. Because he feeds you the same thing time after time. So you just start running through the possibilities. What gets me close, what keeps me out of his reach, if I did this would it put me behind him?

If you keep working at it, eventually you'll find a way to beat it.
Once you do, you've added another tool to your box.

He on the other hand, is a one trick pony, thats now been beat.
He has to either go find a new sucker to beat on. Or go back & start from scratch. Try to find a new "trick" Either way he won't be bothering you.

[Max]

Originally posted by Revor
Ok whenever I merge with a good pilot that i am fighting They usually go low. If they go low and I stay at the same alt should I go high and try to outclimb him since he lost his E? We were dueling and we had the same E same plane and were at the same alt. Should I climb up if he's going low or extend?

Question for you: Just after the merge, are they below or above your six?

[Pooface]

well, it's all about angles.

what ghost said about the high guy winning 90% of the time isnt completely true. you see, if you dive for the merge, you are losing altitude, but gaining lots of energy. now, if you are below your opponent, you have a smaller angle to turn until you get him in your sights, while the higher guy has a longer distance to travel. this is assuming you both immelman for the first merge, which is generally the best way to do it.


basically, whenever you duel like that, in a proper duel with a good pilot, you ALWAYS dive before the merge. if you let the other guy get below you and get some speed over you, you've totally screwed up the merge, and with a good stick on your 6, you're dead

so, dive for the merge if you're going head to head, and if the other guy gets significantly below you, eg, more than 250ft below you, you messed up the merge, and the best thing to do is extend and try to do it again, but usually they'll be close enough to you to prevent you from having another chance at a fair merge.




i'll try to explain it a little better:


now, you both are co-e, and one of you dives. he may lose alt, but he gains speed, and so, for all intensive purposes, he still has the same amount of e as you. now air resistance will increase with speed, but its effect isnt really a problem.

so basically, if he is below you, on the merge, he only needs to turn maybe, 100 degrees to get you in his sights, while the guy on top, has to turn maybe 180/190 degrees to get to the same point. now obviously, that is a big difference. now, what you cant do it try to climb, because you may have more alt, but he has more speed. assuming you are both still co-e, you will both be able to climb to roughly the same point before stalling, so if you try to climb, he WILL catch you.


if you mess up the merge, 90% of the time, the fight is already decided. if you really do mess it up, extend, and try to get the distance to merge again, but like i said, a good pilot wont let you do that


if you'd like i can do a little animation of it, so you can see better:aok



edit:

i think ghost isnt quite understanding what you're talking about. ghost, i think revor is talking about altitude on the merge, not the difference between immel and spit-s on the merge.

but anyhow, to add to ghosts point, if you go up, with an immelman, you can use gravity to tighten your turn, and also to help slow you down, giving you a better turn radius. if you go down, gravity tries to drag you down, hindering your turn, and making you faster, which means you lose alt too fast, and your turn radius grows much larger. almost all of the time, an immelman is the move you should be using to engage:aok

[Revor]

Originally posted by Max
Question for you: Just after the merge, are they below or above your six?

He was below my six and when I did an immelman I would do a quick merge again with him and when I try to get an angle on him he would close quickly on me without me getting an angle on me and before you know it he gets on my six and kills me. Its pretty complicated.

[Pooface]

Originally posted by Revor
He was below my six and when I did an immelman I would do a quick merge again with him and when I try to get an angle on him he would close quickly on me without me getting an angle on me and before you know it he gets on my six and kills me. Its pretty complicated.

yup, you let him get below you. read my post, you'll understand it better


i'll do a little gif for you, so you can see it animated

[Creton]

While I'm only average in the game.There are many varibles to the merge.Do you do a throttle off merge for the quick kill?Do you stay high for the E fighter?My most common merge is an off angle throttle off merge,especially if I'm in a 109.This works very well against most players,for me.Dog fighting is all about getting angles,I personnaly place E management second to working for the angle.There's many ways to get the guy to blow his E,once you've equalized the E state,and youve been working for the angle,you've got him.Of course nothing takes place of just being a good shot.Learn to fight planes that are better in the vertical,then transition to horizontal turn fighting.I've flown 109's as my primary rides for yrs and am just now trying f4u's for a whole tour.Another thing is to watch your speed on the merge,you have to learn to judge their E state quickly and adjust even more quickly.A slower plane will always turn tighter.

I would recommend you learn to fight in 109's or some other lesser desired plane and when you get good in it,go back to ,spits,nikis,ki84's and I can assure you will have a totally different idea on dogfighting.

Good luck and if you ever need a dueling partner,look me up,I'm always open for a couple duels.

[Pooface]

ok, kind of quick, as i dont have a whole load of time, and couldnt be bothered with the animation, it was going all spaz on me:lol





ok, you can see the 2 planes. now as the first guy dives, the second thinks the guy is blowing his e. he goes for the immelman on the merge, trying to play the e game, and starts on a second immelman, when suddenly, he's back in the tower...

now what's actually going on, is that the 1st guy is swapping his gravitational potentail energy for kinetic energy. now, he does of course lose some to air resistance, but that doesnt matter so much, so ignore it. anyway, he may be lower, but they are still co-e, which means they can both climb to the same point, if they're in the same plane of course, but even so, it doesnt make a massive difference.


the 1st guy dives, gets speed, and then he only needs to turn about 100 degrees to get the angle. if you can see from the image, if the second guy hadnt gone for the second immel, he would have had to turn more than 180 degrees to get the 1st guy in sight. THAT is why we dive on the merge. dont worry about losing energy, all you're doing is converting it to another form, which can be changed back again.


either way, if the second guy plays the e game, or the turn game, he is at a severe disadvantage. a good merge is often the deciding factor in a dogfight between equally skilled pilots.


i'd be happy to go to the DA with you and practise it with you revor, or anyone else that wants:aok

[Schatzi]

Revor, heres a Word Document I wrote a while ago, when i got asked a similar question.


Additional explanations and info can be found at Net Aces - Tactics. "Mastering the Merge part 1-3" "Opening Moves" and "Lead turns".


Basically, diving below the enemy on merge will give you the possibility of doing a lead turn, which gives you significant position advantage. (see word file)
You dont need to loose lots of alt in the dive, about 1000 yards seperation are enough, if you go too low, youre correct in thinking you loose too much E doing so. But if you do only a short/small dive and pull back up into a lead turn without pulling too many G forces, the E loss will be insignificant compared to the positional advantage.


Unless you have enough of an E advantage on the merge (then you could pull up and go for a rope) the best thing to do is not letting the opponent gain his seperation by recognising his intention early and matching him.

[TexMurphy]

I dont have much more to add to what Pooface said as he basicly covered it all... but there is one huge advantage in making this type of merging a habbit... vertical separation is also the best way to avoid a HO...

If you win vertical separation you are also totally safe from any type of HO attack.. because if you are below the enemy he has to push stick forward and redout inorder to get his sights even near you...

What I do if I loose the battle for vertical separation depends on the planes involved...

If Im in a relativly fast plane I just extend out of the fight. Yes the enemy will be at my high six but quite far away. You do want to zoom back up relativly soon inorder to conserve energy but not too soon or he will catch up to you.

If Im in a relativly agile plane and dont feel I can extend away from the enemy in a safe manner I do take the fight. In this situation I open up with a tilted immelman. This way my immelman is compressed in altitude and I also create some horisontal separation which gives me some extention to the enemy. This way we can endup in a situation where we are co alt after the first immelman. Hence I can try to win vertical separation in the second merge.

The angles will be there for the enemy to capitalize on but he wount have them exactly where he expects them a experienced pilot will still capitalize on them but the chance is that he got over confident from his first merge. Less experienced pilots wount get into firing position before the second merge.

Tex

[Pooface]

good points tex


yeah, very hard for a hotard to get a shot if you are lower than him and moving fast. and if he tries to go for the ho, then he has even further to travel to kill you, making it even easier for you to kill him

[Murdr]

Originally posted by Revor
Ok whenever I merge with a good pilot that i am fighting They usually go low. If they go low and I stay at the same alt should I go high and try to outclimb him since he lost his E? We were dueling and we had the same E same plane and were at the same alt. Should I climb up if he's going low or extend?

When 2 planes with equal turning ability merge, and 1 plane passes under the merge, the lower plane has 'won the merge'.  Mind you, that does not mean won the fight, but they get to start with an advantage.  Here is why.

If you both pull and immelman:

• The lower plane can pull the exact same turn radius and end up inside the higher planes turn at the 2nd merge.
• The lower plane can opt to match the top alt of the higher planes turn, thereby making a lighter turn than the higher plane, and conserving E.  (If both started with exactly the same E, the lower plane will carry more E into the 2nd merge.  This can be an advantage if it goes into multiple immelmans)
• The lower plane can start his turn first (pre-turn) because he will be turing into his opponent above him.

Additional advantages:

• The lower plane is approching the merge in a way that is not easy for the opponent to connect with a head on shot.
• If the opponent is intent on going for a HO, they will be at an angles disadvantage before the merge even takes place.  (This includes those foolish enough to invert for a HO, and make a convenient overshooting split-s after the merge)

As mentioned, the lower plane does not really lose E.  He is trading altitude for speed.  A good pilot can manage his initial turn so that he passes under the merge with a nose up angle, and not lose excess E when starting the turn.

If you are TRUELY co-E going into the first merge, you will not get enough vertical separation by extending up to escape an experienced pilot.  If you feel you have "lost the merge" it is usually worthwhile to lightly pull up and observe what the other guy is doing after the merge.  If you see him pulling the tightest immelman he can, you (given a co-E situaion) should be able to extend safely away anywhere between level, and 45deg attitude because your opponent has lost alot of E pulling that tight turn.  On the other hand if you see them 'soft-sticking' their immelman, then you really have nothing to lose by tightening up your turn to match, or turn inside them.

Now I am not saying that you cannot go up, and simply out E another plane, what I am saying is that if you do, make sure you started with an E advantage, and make your own turn into the vertical with E conservation in mind.

[hammer]

Originally posted by Murdr
When 2 planes with equal turning ability merge, and 1 plane passes under the merge, the lower plane has 'won the merge'.

I would caveat this with "Unless the lower plane is still nose down". Don't get so intent on being the low man on the merge that you end up going straight down trying to get below the other guy. Many times I find someone so intent on winning the low position that they allow themselves to get into a dive they can't easily pull out of. Meanwhile I will level early, go up and end the merge with a significant e advantage.

[TequilaChaser]

what  Murdr, Hammer & Ghosth eluded too.....the whole concept of getting below your opponent on a head to head merge starting Co-alt/co-E is to gain a SLIGHT speed advantage( <--- so you can match his vertical climb/turn and stay inside his turn ) along with SEPERATION <--------that is key!!! this slight dive gains you the seperation you need to TURN  and not OVERSHOOT your enemy.

I myself prefer both Vertical and horizontal seperation, to thwart off any HO's if possible, and use something some call a high "pitchback" ( Immelman mixed with hi yoyo type turn kinda) instead of a true immelman.......it throws you "out of turning plane" with the flight path / flight circle  of your opponent......and if you do it right and gain the proper amount of seperation ( Schatzi mentioned it bout 1k distance in seperation before you start) you can pull off your lead turn and be sitting right on your opponents "six" and can react to whatever he trys to do to escape your wraith.......

when you run across someone trying to beat you to be on the bottom,  he is wanting to do the same as you, and for the 1st turn/circle or 2 you will more than likely end up stallmate nose to nose unless you got a feel for throwing your opponent off by switching up your direction, making them lose sight of you


them links Schatzi posted on Merges/lead turns are worth the reading to try and understand the fundamentals of those 2 subjects!!!, win the merge you you got the fight in the bag 95% of the time.......and most times you will win that merge with a well executed LEAD TURN.....

[bozon]

I'm not a great 1on1 player but there are more than one ways to beat the other guy. Don't get too keen about being the lower man. If the merge becomes a high speed diving contest you can use it against the other guy.

Pulling the plane 6G around at very high speeds will blow lots lots of E. If you think he'll go for the angles, blast through and pull a lazy double immelman (vertical S). He'll have to turn almost 180 degrees to point back at you, near black out and sheeding his E trying to turn "inside" you (some even reduce throttle / use flaps) - while you save your E and climb high. IF (big IF, this requires some judgement and a gamble) you started with high enough speed AND managed to fool him that this will be a turning contest, you'll get an easy rope at the end of the vertical S.

The purpose of the S instead of straight-up zoom is to give him the feeling of turning, encouraging him to keep going hard for the angles. Also, it makes a harder shot for him to make (he WILL attempt to get a lucky shot in).

Bozon