question about merges

[TequilaChaser]

I too agree with ya , Bozon. 1 does not always have to be the lower plane. 1 does not need to execute, rinse,repeat using the same type of opening merge,  or  the nose to nose merge everyone has refered to here at the beginning.....if ya do you'll become as someone above mentioned, a 1 trick pony show.....

to sit here and type out all the different things or ways one could use to engage thir opponent would take many a hour if not a day or 2 to type in.....

in any 1 vs 1 engagement, I still say the key component of the fight is gaining seperation enough to turn, yet stay with your opponent so he does not obtain enough seperation to fly beyond your reach........ executing a Double Immelman or similar maneuver is always sweet when you pull it off.....

[Murdr]

Originally posted by hammer
I would caveat this with "Unless the lower plane is still nose down". Don't get so intent on being the low man on the merge that you end up going straight down trying to get below the other guy. .

Originally posted by Murdr
A good pilot can manage his initial turn so that he passes under the merge with a nose up angle, and not lose excess E when starting the turn.
 

[hammer]

Originally posted by Murdr
A good pilot can manage his initial turn so that he passes under the merge with a nose up angle, and not lose excess E when starting the turn.

Ah Murdr, you must've typed that part too fast. I'm a slow reader so you must type slower.

[332nd outlaw]

Originally posted by VIC
Dog fighting is all about getting angles,I personnaly place E management second to working for the angle.

i love coming across guys likes this in tha main...  E management is everything...

if you get a angle but do not have the E to maintain it then it is worthless unless you can get the shot to hit right then..sanpshots are great but unreiliable and to place the angle over maintaining your E is opening yourself up for being on the disadvataged side and there are just to many good sticks in here to give that kind of opening too..first priority should always be given to maintianing your bird in it's proper flight envolpe thus mainting the nessary E to counter any and all moves the angle will come if you manage your E and learn your birds abilities...

there is no replacement for seat time in AH.. even if it is seat time while reading some web page on the performance of the differnt birds in here, reading someones ideas on fighting or actual seat time in the bird of your choice..

[Pooface]

outlaw, i think creton knows what he's talking about, he's been around for quite a while now. E is always important yes, but in a real fight, the kind of fight where neither pilot is very timid, E management doesnt matter so much. the emphasis in furballs and decent turnfights is on gaining shots. most snapshots in a turnfight are deadly, infact 70% of kills in turnfights are snapshots, simply because of the proximity and the speeds of the fighters, which allows easy leading of the target.

in an engagement that's mor spaced out, then energy usually becomes the deciding factor, but getting the angle, and therefore the kill is usually more important than keeping E:aok

[Murdr]

Maximizing and maintaining E is "E management".  Intentionally dumping E to achieve an angle, position, or separation is also "E management".  With that in mind, I'll go along with "E management is everything".  Both cases are valid applications of E management to achieve their respective goals. "Dogfighting is all about gaining angles", I'll go along with that statment also.  There are differing strategies and techniques for gaining them.

Neither approach is in general, "more right" than the other.  They are both respective tools in the toolbox.  Lets say you want to loosen a bolt.  You look in the toolbox, which tool do you choose?  Adjustable wrench?  Ratchet & socket? Box wrench?  Electric Impact wrench?  One can argue the merits of one tool over the others, but when it comes down to it, the best tool for the job depends on the 'specific situation' you plan to use it in.  

In dogfighting though the 'specific situation' is fluid.  It depends heavily on what your opponent is doing.  While people may favor one approach, and think theirs is the best, they will find themselves on occation with the wrong tool in hand.

You'll notice in my first post that I allowed options for both approaches.  The reason for that is because, there is always a way to counter or negate an explicit "do this..." suggestion.  IMO it's best to be aware of more than just one option/approach/tool, and learn from experience which option is appropriate for the specific situation, and opponent you face.  There are a number of good options being shared in this thread.  There is also a counter for each of them, and some specfic sitiuations where they may or may not be the best tool for the job.

So I will close by adding the 3rd leg to the "is everything" stool.  Situation awareness is everything.  As I said the situation is fluid in air combat, and one should always be compairing the situation with the 'tool in hand' to make sure they have the right one for the situation of the moment.

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by Pooface
E is always important yes, but in a real fight, the kind of fight where neither pilot is very timid, E management doesnt matter so much. the emphasis in furballs and decent turnfights is on gaining shots. most snapshots in a turnfight are deadly, infact 70% of kills in turnfights are snapshots, simply because of the proximity and the speeds of the fighters, which allows easy leading of the target.

in an engagement that's mor spaced out, then energy usually becomes the deciding factor, but getting the angle, and therefore the kill is usually more important than keeping E:aok

I disagree, Pooface, blowing your E for the quick angle/snapshot will leaving you dangling in the air for the next furballer to come along and make quick food of you......

when furballing regardless if ya just Turning n Burning  or BNZing you still should always put Energy management before the gaining angles, actually without Energy Management you can maybe get 1 if your lucky 2 kills, then you are dead in the air, no energy ( speed/alt ) to deal with any others unless you can sneak away and regain position....

this has been discussed upteen million times, everyone has their own opinion,

now what is different from a real fight , a furball fight, a 1 vs 1 fight?

if you are smart you would approach every type of fight with the same basics SA(Situational Awareness), Energy Management, Flying to gain angles and inevitably the kill......

I am a bit curious what you are calling a "Real Fight"  I am assuming you are talking about flying down under 5k alt or 3k alt and furballing with like 2 to 5 on 2 to 5 or more each side, if this is the case, what justifys this as being anything near real?

one of the worse things to do in the training and help section is explain to another something, yet everything you tell them is wrong, and you do not even know it because the person who told or taught you did not know they was wrong in teaching you that.......or you found something that worked for you once or twice so one thinks well that must work that way everytime and begin to rely on it and teach it to others, yet never get the concept of WHY it worked and never get or explain the principles behind it and how it is possible......

for every good solid correct information/website you read, you will find 10 websites with info that is totally wrong in what they try to lecture or teach on ACM/BFM dogfighting......

It is always best to follow up on what  others teach you, to verify you have not been mislead, and if you think you got all the answers, I am sorry to say none of us will ever have all the answers, and we will always be open to learning something new that we did not even realize was possible until we stumble upon it one day.......

I know Vic has been here awhile and has some good skills, yet, outlaw was right in his thinking, calling someone out and making an example of others is not a good thing for this forum,  outlaw could have worded it a bit differently perhaps, then again that is just my opinion.......


sorry for the rambling.......

edited: dangit Murder I started typing before you did, you need to put your keyboard back on SLOW MODE, rofl........you beat me to it this time ~S~

[Murdr]

HA! beat ya to the post button that time TC

On a separate note, I did want to add that while snap shots can be effective, they can also be your undoing when in many situations they tend to pull you out of position if the snapshot does not end the fight.  Like most things, it can have a down side, and one should keep that in mind if they choose to rely on them .

[Creton]

Originally posted by 332nd outlaw
i love coming across guys likes this in tha main...  E management is everything...
 [/QUOTE

What you prefer to do is drop in at mach3 and cherry pick the opponite,while this is your style of fighting,it is very easy to defend against.It's very easy to allow the higher/faster con to burn his energy and to draw him into your fight.
Unless the other guy is so timid to only make bnz slashes and then extend,he will become bored with the effort and come in and try to follow through the maneuver and thus blow his energy.People live for the immediate gratification of a kill and without the fear of actual death,their confidence will grow with each attack as they  think their getting closer to the "boom".While each time theyre actually being suckered into a fight they dont see coming. I've been playing since 2002 and have yet to have a fight that didnt end up slow,even at high altitude.Even the most eperienced E fighter will eventually slow down as he sees his chances are increasing.This is mearly my opinion.

I'm sure I'm not nearly the pilot or experienced BBS reader that you are,but I'd be willing to test your style of flying against mine.If you win,easily then I stand corrected and will post so in this thread.However the engagement dictates  that you cant extend beyond icon range.

As far as finding me in the MAIN ARENA,I'm very easy to locate.Look me up sometime.

[Creton]

Maybe timid in the second paragraph was to strong.Let me just say "disciplined"

[Creton]

Originally posted by TequilaChaser


one of the worse things to do in the training and help section is explain to another something, yet everything you tell them is wrong, and you do not even know it because the person who told or taught you did not know they was wrong in teaching you that.......or you found something that worked for you once or twice so one thinks well that must work that way everytime and begin to rely on it and teach it to others, yet never get the concept of WHY it worked and never get or explain the principles behind it and how it is possible......

I call BS on this paragraph TC.Anything that you've learned from numerous engagements can be taught to others.They are still learning and thus advanceing in skill,if only by a small amount.Not everyone in here is wrong nor are thr Trainers always right.I've shot down most everyone of you all ,while you are tryng your high E,keep it safe flying.How be it most of you have killed me at one time or another to.

I've never been one to attack people,but you need to get off your soap box.

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by VIC
I call BS on this paragraph TC.Anything that you've learned from numerous engagements can be taught to others.They are still learning and thus advanceing in skill,if only by a small amount.Not everyone in here is wrong nor are thr Trainers always right.I've shot down most everyone of you all ,while you are tryng your high E,keep it safe flying.How be it most of you have killed me at one time or another to.

I've never been one to attack people,but you need to get off your soap box.

#1- I never said anywhere in this thread that EVERYONE was wrong

#2- I never said anywhere in this thread that EVERY TRAINER was right

#3- I call BS to your BS, you need to re-read that paragraph, and disect it to understand what I was explaining, I was not talking about anyone in this thread,  and what I said was true.  

#4- ah heck, Vic/Creton/unhappy AH flyer - I will end it here, I am 6 foot tall, I don't need no stinkin soapbox........everything I said that you quoted is fact

and everything I said that you quoted was not directed at any body in this thread!  chew on that please

[Schatzi]

IMHO,  the "problem" with Air Combat is: every situation is unique. There is no this is more important that that or that is everything. It all so much depends on your position, planes, alt, speeds, who your opponent is, your equipment (get your minds out of the gutterguy, im talking about flight gear), how you feel....

There are general rule of thumbs which "work" 99% of the time, but that doesnt mean that going against them in a certain situation wont help you/be the right thing to do at the time. PANTA REI.




PS: Please, anytime anyone feels i post things that are wrong worded and/or incorrect - DONT HESITATE CALLING BS on me.

[pellik]

Originally posted by Murdr
Maximizing and maintaining E is "E management".  Intentionally dumping E to achieve an angle, position, or separation is also "E management".  With that in mind, I'll go along with "E management is everything".  Both cases are valid applications of E management to achieve their respective goals. "Dogfighting is all about gaining angles", I'll go along with that statment also.  There are differing strategies and techniques for gaining them.

Neither approach is in general, "more right" than the other.  They are both respective tools in the toolbox.  Lets say you want to loosen a bolt.  You look in the toolbox, which tool do you choose?  Adjustable wrench?  Ratchet & socket? Box wrench?  Electric Impact wrench?  One can argue the merits of one tool over the others, but when it comes down to it, the best tool for the job depends on the 'specific situation' you plan to use it in.  

In dogfighting though the 'specific situation' is fluid.  It depends heavily on what your opponent is doing.  While people may favor one approach, and think theirs is the best, they will find themselves on occation with the wrong tool in hand.

You'll notice in my first post that I allowed options for both approaches.  The reason for that is because, there is always a way to counter or negate an explicit "do this..." suggestion.  IMO it's best to be aware of more than just one option/approach/tool, and learn from experience which option is appropriate for the specific situation, and opponent you face.  There are a number of good options being shared in this thread.  There is also a counter for each of them, and some specfic sitiuations where they may or may not be the best tool for the job.

So I will close by adding the 3rd leg to the "is everything" stool.  Situation awareness is everything.  As I said the situation is fluid in air combat, and one should always be compairing the situation with the 'tool in hand' to make sure they have the right one for the situation of the moment.

So much useless banter not related to the question at hand followed this lovely post by Murdr. I'm quoting this just to add emphasis.

Merges are a combination of SA (what he does, how fast he is), positional awareness (where will we both be after this move, so I can plan ahead and string togeather some sort of combination of moves if need be), and energy awareness (how fast will we both be after this move). If you fail to combine these three things effectively when merging your ultimately going to expose yourself to a talented opponent.

Consider the diagram of the immel v. immel merge pooface made. If the lower pilot dives too much and keeps all his E going into the merge he is going to be considerably above corner speed, and as such the radius of his turn is going to be bigger, if the higher pilot does a better job managing his E (slow, not fast, but it's all still E management) his turn radius may be small enough to get inside and pick up the snapshot. So initial E considerations make a big difference.

Now if the above pilot pulls for a shot and misses he is now wings level (gaining speed) with an opponent who is travelling in the vertical and pretty close to or below corner speed. Using the energy egg and/or a controlled stall can quickly reverse the fight again ala vertical scissors. Or perhaps the faster plane moves into a double immel and the slower plane that looked for the snapshot simply can't get nose high again, stalls, and gets roped.

This is just the most basic considerations in one variation of a merge. How do E states and positions change if one pilot does a pitchback (first part of a high yo-yo, using the horizontal), or what if he does a flat turn? Many pilots just assume that because the flat turn isn't as energy efficient or as quick (burning E in the vert to achieve corner speed) as an immel it is inferior, but a positional consideration reveals that the the pilot doing the immel must be nose down and working agaisnt the energy egg following the move, which provides an opening for a vertical scissors. Merges are a delicate and balanced game much like chess. And also like chess you can't compete at the top level without a balanced knowledge of opening theory, tactics, strategy, and a strong positional sense to know that one pawn move on move 5 can win the end game 50 moves later.

Lots of people will give you advice along the lines of 'do this to counter', and while that may let you compete against other pilots relying on set moves (memorizing lines, by the chess analagy), really learning the merge is simply a matter of analyzing your options until you understand them.



I'm not gearing this anti-line-memorization rant at this thread, though. This is a long standing gripe against 'help with my merge' threads. Please noone take offense. Also I damn well know that I'm just joining the band-wagon on this stuff. This thread is mostly all about fluid response. I just felt like writing a bit about it.

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by pellik
So much useless banter not related to the question at hand followed this lovely post by Murdr. I'm quoting this just to add emphasis.

you're absolutely right, pellik

Originally posted by pellik

Merges are a combination of SA (what he does, how fast he is), positional awareness (where will we both be after this move, so I can plan ahead and string togeather some sort of combination of moves if need be), and energy awareness (how fast will we both be after this move). If you fail to combine these three things effectively when merging your ultimately going to expose yourself to a talented opponent.

Consider the diagram of the immel v. immel merge pooface made. If the lower pilot dives too much and keeps all his E going into the merge he is going to be considerably above corner speed, and as such the radius of his turn is going to be bigger, if the higher pilot does a better job managing his E (slow, not fast, but it's all still E management) his turn radius may be small enough to get inside and pick up the snapshot. So initial E considerations make a big difference.

Now if the above pilot pulls for a shot and misses he is now wings level (gaining speed) with an opponent who is travelling in the vertical and pretty close to or below corner speed. Using the energy egg and/or a controlled stall can quickly reverse the fight again ala vertical scissors. Or perhaps the faster plane moves into a double immel and the slower plane that looked for the snapshot simply can't get nose high again, stalls, and gets roped.

This is just the most basic considerations in one variation of a merge. How do E states and positions change if one pilot does a pitchback (first part of a high yo-yo, using the horizontal), or what if he does a flat turn? Many pilots just assume that because the flat turn isn't as energy efficient or as quick (burning E in the vert to achieve corner speed) as an immel it is inferior, but a positional consideration reveals that the the pilot doing the immel must be nose down and working agaisnt the energy egg following the move, which provides an opening for a vertical scissors. Merges are a delicate and balanced game much like chess. And also like chess you can't compete at the top level without a balanced knowledge of opening theory, tactics, strategy, and a strong positional sense to know that one pawn move on move 5 can win the end game 50 moves later.

Lots of people will give you advice along the lines of 'do this to counter', and while that may let you compete against other pilots relying on set moves (memorizing lines, by the chess analagy), really learning the merge is simply a matter of analyzing your options until you understand them.

I'm not gearing this anti-line-memorization rant at this thread, though. This is a long standing gripe against 'help with my merge' threads. Please noone take offense. Also I damn well know that I'm just joining the band-wagon on this stuff. This thread is mostly all about fluid response. I just felt like writing a bit about it.

Thanks for the contribution, and getting back on topic...

and Schatzi, don't think I ever seen you say anything wrong, and your help is always appreciated, Ma'am.....

Good Day All, late for the realworld  here