Are we benefitting from the abortions?

[AKDejaVu]

A man and a woman have to decide.  The woman wants to, the man doesn't.  The woman doesn't want to, the man does.  It gets pretty complicated.

Your basic assumption is that the man has no say.  I really don't know what society you live in, but as a rule in most... the man will have a say.  Then, its just a matter of what the woman decides.

It only seems to be an issue when the woman doesn't want to have the baby... but the man does.  Of course, its much more difficult to chart the number of times a man has pressured a woman into an abortion when she really didn't want to.

I really get tired of both sides on various abortion issues trying to make everything so cut and dry.  The whole argument is cloudy and full of grey areas.  Nothing is painfully obvious.  Of course, it does make for an ideal environment for the sanctimonious self-righteous people from both sides to step in and do their thing.

AKDejaVu

[Dinger]

Hehe wrench.  The man can always skip town.
I don't normally get into these things, but:
Miko, I've seen this argument before, but statistics are shifty things, open to plenty of interpretation. Furthermore, it won't get you anywhere here.

Alright all you budding theologians out there, who seem to know so much Hebrew.  "You shall not kill" you interpret as "murder".  Know any Greek? Why does this commandment get exempted from J.C.'s interpretation in some sermon or other?

Further, I'm sorry, but I can't allow you to base this society on your notion of Divine Law.  You claim that humans have souls, and that the quickening occurs at the moment of seminal conception.  I don't think a human becomes even near rational until about age 4.  Sainted catholic theologians believed the divinely created soul didn't get infused until 40 or 46 days after seminal conception (share a cigarette and an RU 486).
In short, your gods (or whichever one of them established the laws) might exist, and might indeed have laid down the law on the matter.  But in a society where, I'm sorry, we just don't agree on such things, we've got to establish an arbitrary point where a human life begins; a point which is evident to all, and that's when the thing is physically separated from its host, birth.
You're not happy; you want some mystical biological moment you can't see through a microscope.  I'm not happy, I want legalized infanticide up to age 4 (They're still parasites, dammit).

Dinger
(My God can beat up your god)

[miko2d]

 

Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Of course, you assume there are two options: 1) abortion  2) raising the child.

Your argument is flawed at the core.
AKDejaVu

 I wish it was. I do realise it may be flawed but I do not see how and you are not helping.

 Another thing that some people do not want to realize is, that there are two points here. 1 st - the society prospers from the phenomena most people abhorr.
 2 nd - is there a way to achieve the same results some other way. I hate abortions as much as any other nonreligious guy and consider them necessary evil. Suggest a realistic way to make them unnecessary and I will support it. It does not make their beneficial consecuences null and void.
 Our prosperity in US is based on extermination of the original population. We do not have to like it but we benefit from it by having this country to outselves rather then having to live elsewhere.

 You see a problem with my numbers? Tell me.
 I think your unvilinness to accept abortion makes you unwilling to accept a pretty clear reasoning. I am very familiar with that. I grew up in a state that was rewriting history to get rid of undesirable things in the past.

 If Hitler did not do what he did, my parents would not have met and I would not have been born. I do not have to deny his evilness to accept that simple fact.

 Dinger:
 The issue of when the soul gets infused is irrelevant. The use of contraceptives like condoms and pills is also forbidden. Here we do not have conception yet. This is a matter of doctrine, not logic.

miko

[AKDejaVu]

 

Another thing that some people do not want to realize is, that there are two points here. 1 st - the society prospers from the phenomena most people abhorr.

Very bad wording and very inaccurate.

Just who exactly are you trying to help?  Society?  Many bad things have been done on behalf of one person's vision of society.

AKDejaVu

[Dinger]

But the use of contraceptives and the practice of abortion are forbidden for different reasons, and have different peccatory valences.  Logic and doctrine are not always, nor necessarily contradictory; indeed, some would argue that doctrine is supremely rational and supremely logical, just not to us in this life.
So, aborting a unquickened pregnancy would be venial: if it don't have a rational soul, by definition it ain't a human being. So the long-term, post-purgatory outlook's a helluva lot better than for those kickin' 'em out after spiritual conception.

Reminds me of some friends of mine in college who had a band called "Aborted Messiah"

[This message has been edited by Dinger (edited 10-06-2000).]

[Cabby]

Quote:

"It seems that public funding of abortions returns much more bang for the buck then funding of jails, police, educational programs, etc."

Hitler and the Nazis woulda been proud.

Any idiot who has taken High School Biology knows Abortion is Murder.  To say otherwise is merely an attempt to rationalize an act that should only be undertaken when the life of the mother is threatened.  

Abortion as a "convenience", as "population control", or to "weed-out the undesireable" is an outrage.  

To borrow from CNN's Bernard Shaw:

"For the purposes of this discussion, picture yourself as an unborn child whose "mother" is about to swallow RU-486 and flush your remains down the toilet.  Can you tell us how you feel......"

"Pro-Choice my ass".

Cabby

[leonid]

   

I find it very male that a bunch of men are discussing something that only women should have a say in.

Go figure ...

Oh, yeah.  Flame on ... heh.

[leonid]

(NOTE: I've edited this post, because though I'm not sure if an actual god-entity really exists, I would be very surprised if such a one would be anything but full of compassion for all things in this universe.  Also, it's not right to belittle someones beliefs, no matter how at odds they may be with ones own.)

[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 10-07-2000).]

[StSanta]

I'm with leonid here.

It *is* cut out and very simple. The woman has to carry the the fetus, it's in her body, it's her choice. The male might influence her, but in no way is it ultimately his decision.

Unless you yourself are at risk of becoming directly involved I think it is wrong to have a say on whether one should be allowed a choice or not. As it is now, all males are safe and can sit on a piedestal condemning abortions.

It's sorta like a non skydiver telling a skydiver "no, you can't carry a reserve chute.".

What compelling arguments are there against abortion? The child killing bit? Well, since religions are arbitrary, we shoulkd go for available scientific amd to a much lesser extent judicial knowledge . While we cannot say when a fetus turns into a person on a second by second basis, it is clear that during some states of pregnancy, the fetus is NOT a person. Then there is the legal bit. Then there is the person vs person bit.

I haven't really seen any compelling arguments that would justify removng the right of self determination from a woman - and that is what this is really about.

Abortions aren't very much fun, I've heard. During my "troubled youth  ", I had a friend who went through an abortion - first of all, physically, it ain't comfortable. Secondly, the emotional hurt is quite significant as well. Regardless of my personal opinions about abortions, it ain't up to me to decide what another human wants to do with their body.


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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

[Fishu]

I say that abortion should be decided by the person himself, not by the community who has no idea of her living status.

More likely abortion than abandoned child on the streets.
Where they could end up because parents wouldn't look much after, if they couldn't have done abortion.

Most of us lives in so called 'free countries', where abortion should be invidual level of choice, not others.

Those who talks about murder, should then also avoid killing animals of any kind..

[Igloo]

I think it is a crime, and a violation of human rights not to have the freedom of choice.  I believe abortion should be strictly regulated (like guns), but not outlawed.

The young woman who is raped and pregnated has the right to have an abortion. It is not her fault and she did not decide to bring a child into this world at this time.  She at least has the right to choose.

How can people here so patriotically sing about living in a country where you're free to choose how you wish to live, yet totally contridict themselves by saying that women should not have that right?

Also, why do you classify it as murder?  Abortion is done before the fetus is even partially developed.  All it is, is a bundle of cells going through mitosis, there is no consciousness yet.  Should you have an abortion later on in the pregnancy, then yes, you could classify it as murder.

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Squadron Leader, Igloo.
C/O RCAF 411 Squadron - County of York

"Problems cannot be solved with the same awareness that created them" - Albert Einstein[/i]

[Cabby]

Quote:

"Also, why do you classify it as murder? Abortion is done before the fetus is even partially developed. All it is, is a bundle of cells going through mitosis, there is no consciousness yet. Should you have an abortion later on in the pregnancy, then yes, you could classify it as murder."

like i said..lame rationalizations....Also, to state that the "male" has no say in the life of an unborn-only on born children is not only illogical, it's stupid.

Cabby

[Dinger]

Using your logic, other lame rationalizations cabby:
In every move we make, we murder tons of blood cells, but we dare not call it murder.
Birth certificates should be issued at conception.  72 hours after having sex, every woman should report to a clinic to see if a new citizen has into being.
Believe it or not, human life, and when it begins, is not an absolute concept.  And I don't believe human beings begin existence at birth because I'm pro-choice, but vice versa; and I resent having someone suggest that my convictions are motivated by anything but a sincere belief.

[This message has been edited by Dinger (edited 10-07-2000).]

[StSanta]

Cabby:

Scientific knowledge is lame rationalisations.

I bet everyone who disagrees with you are full of lame rationalisations, right?

When facts are pulled out, they are lame rationalisations. When no facts are there, the people are just stupid.

I wish I could live in your black and white fantasy world.

What colour is the sky on the planet you live on?

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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

[Eagler]

Notice how the libs always have to get the last word in? As if that makes them right.
 Eagler