Oh my! Bush has lost his luster?!? Let the fun begin!

[-towd_]

yea i relly believe the rich should be taxed more heavily . and yes i do believe the middle and lower class is screwed by the republican party over and over. and yea i think any involvment of the church in politics is wrong. and yea i believe you will quote statistics that are roadkill to prove you point.

think about this. there are many more " poor " people than " rich " and the more "poor " people are gonna vote for the party aginst the "rich " people so your taxes are gonna go up like in every other democratic  country on the planet . you can not win this one . the more you gain power thru intimidation and power brokering the more "poor" you create. you win the battle for us . mo matter what you do you taxes are gonna go up. "tax the rich till there are no rich no more" and by rich i dont mean 300 k a year people ( even though no one needs that much cash) i mean the hereditary rich like our president. not those who accomplish it thru personal work. call me a socialist call me a comunist call me a toejamhead but the future is clear you cant stop us. we are the majority in a democacy.

[Yeager]

you cant stop us. we are the majority in a democacy.
====
You are the loafers and the freeloaders as well as the self described uneducated and drug infested.  You are the criminals and the victims and the immoral perpepuators of sin bar none.  And yes, you are everywhere and doing your damnedest to ruin it for the rest of us because you cant stand for anyone else to have anything that you dont.

You will not win because you are the enemies of the "the people"

Yeager  

[Toad]

Well, I know I'm wasting my time, but here goes:

Towd,

Where do you personally set the income per year level for the "lower" and "middle" classes?

As for "you will quote statistics that are roadkill to prove you point. ", those are from the US IRS report on 1998 tax returns. They haven't released anything newer than that; it takes a while.

So, if they are BS, they are BS that follow almost exactly the percentages shown in the reports of the last 8 years. You think your favorite administration was telling them to "cook the books" during the last 8 years?  

"tax the rich till there are no rich no more"

Ever think that one through? If there are no more rich, what's left? EVERYBODY will be poor...due to the way the world economy works.

Don't expect you to believe that though; basically it's what Eagler pointed out. However, I'm sure all the Economists and textbooks are wrong and you're right, as always.  


"call me a socialist call me a comunist call me a toejamhead..."


According to my favorite Englishman, Winston Churchill, I believe you'd be a socialist."  

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings. The inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of misery."

He had a few others that apply to this discussion too.

"I do not wonder that British youth is in revolt against the morbid doctrine that nothing matters but the equal sharing of miseries; that what used to be called the submerged tenth can only be rescued by bringing the other nine-tenths down to their level; against the folly that it is better that everyone should have half rations rather than that any by their exertions, or ability, should earn a second helping."

"All men are created equal' says the American Declaration of Independence. 'All men shall be kept equal' say the Socialists."

Yeah, I think "socialist" fits ya. What do you think Dowding?  



[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 02-08-2001).]

[Kieren]

In all honesty he sounds more like a "Borg".

"You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile."

Seriously Towd, you appear to be the poster boy of what conservatives fear. On your behalf you admit what your political leaders won't; that by keeping the poor down and upset they have an endless supply of votes. We have too many government programs that do nothing but prolong impoverishment. These same impoverished do indeed vote, and they vote themselves more entitlements.

My eyes have been opened by this thread, though. I wasn't cynical enough to believe people believed the government had the right to take away hard-earned fruits of labor for no better reason than said government had deemed an unacceptable level of success had been reached.

Just curious though... I give to charity. I tithe a full one-tenth of my wages to my church, too. I know I am just a heartless conservative, but how about the people who believe the government should invade your earnings and take them from you if you make too much? Do you willingly give a substantial amount of your personal income to any cause? I am not asking for specifics, just curious how many really live as they say.

[leonid]

Kieren,
I was once in the seminary, studying to be a Catholic priest.  To say that Jesus' eye of the needle saying was used out of context leaves me speechless.  It's kind of like saying, "It depends on what the meaning of 'is' is."


To my righteous conservative bretheren,

You're all imperialistic interventionalist capitalists!  Sleep well in you piles of green.  Heh  

[leonid]

 

Originally posted by Kieren:
Just curious though... I give to charity. I tithe a full one-tenth of my wages to my church, too. I know I am just a heartless conservative, but how about the people who believe the government should invade your earnings and take them from you if you make too much? Do you willingly give a substantial amount of your personal income to any cause? I am not asking for specifics, just curious how many really live as they say.

Of course, Kieren.  I give money to environmental groups all the time.  I used to give money to the City's fire dept. until it turned into some slick production schtik.  I used to give street people money all the time too until I stopped working in Pioneer Square(old part of Seattle downtown).

[leonid]

 

Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Leonid, what about us that started our adult working lives with $100 and a suitcase full of clothes 1700 miles from the nearest relative, renting a room for $50 a month, sleeping on the floor near a hot plate for warmth, a pile of broken bricks used for tossing at the drunken and drugged bums trying to climb in the window from the nearby alley while flicking cockroaches out from the tattered blanket, eating snickers candy bars for lunch and dinner because I could not afford real food until I found a job?

Those of us that payed for our own education by working not only late evenings but 2 jobs just so  we could afford to attend morning classes with little or no sleep?

Those of us who worked our tulips off to attain a 6 digit income for our families?

Those of us that devote our time to the underpriveledged, that give cash to childrens hospitals for terminally ill children?

You gonna penalized us that have payed the price of poverty, but managed to work our fingers to the bone and pull ourselves up by the bootstraps and didn't quit?

That's the difference between Republicans and Democrats:

Republicans want to bring those in the lower class up, Democrats want to drag those in the upper class down.

[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-08-2001).]

Rip, I think we should just agree to disagree.  You see your past situation as an example of being able to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps due to living in a capitalistic society.  I read your story, and the first thing that comes to my mind is that if America was a socialized democracy you never would've been in such dire straits to begin with.

[Eagler]

I still don't believe the towd, leniods and StSanta's here. They have to be toejame stirring as no one can be that naive. They have to realize their political leaders spew their line for nothing more than personal gain, helping no one but themselves in the long run. Yes, towd and the like are plants. Just as the arguing caller on most radio programs, you have to do something to keep it lively. Pretty convincing, almost believed they believed, but no way in hell.. no one is that stupid  

Eagler

[Kieren]

Eagler-

I don't think I would disrespect them so far as to say they don't believe in their viewpoints. I have met people very much like them, and even if you are right in this case, there are people like that (as you say).

I don't think it is wrong to have the different viewpoints, as long as it is ok to disagree with them.


Leonid-

Ah, so you're one of those "damn Catholics"!   In the Baptist religion that line apparently doesn't carry the same connotation you assign it. If you take a literalist approach, yes, it does mean you are better off poor. Still, it is what is in the heart that matters to God, and if you put money before God you have your feet in the fire, at least as far as Baptists go. If you keep God first there is nothing wrong with the wealth. The wealth is to be used for God's purposes, not selfish desires. Logically there could be no other explanation for Abraham, Isiah (sp), Moses, David, Solomon, etc.

"Better to cut off your right hand if it sins against you, than to have your entire soul thrown into the fire." Do I take that literally, too?

[Ripsnort]

Leonid:"I read your story, and the first thing that comes to my mind is that if America was a socialized democracy you never would've been in such dire straits to begin with."

Leonid, I chose to take this route, I could have stayed in Minnesota, could have accepted my father's offer to attend the U of M, could have lived with him until I graduated...but I chose to EARN what I reap through life.

Socialized democracy, IMO, is nothing more than having everyone at one income level, with a poor socialized healthcare system where one would have to travel to another country for a serious medical condition, where one would have no inspiration to 'be the best he can be'..since no matter how hard you work, you would be taxed back into poverty, where free loaders flourish, where hard workers would be depressed seeing the freeloaders take advantage of 'the system'...where you have to be 'born' into the top 1% that has all the wealth in a social gov't, instead of going out and earning it with an expression or idea (See Bill Gates story).

No thank, I'll take capitalism.  It provides inspiration for those of us that choose to reach his or her potential.

[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-09-2001).]

[blur]

"It's not how much money you possess, but whether money possesses you."
  - Unknown

Everything's a game and the game played in the western world is capitalism. The individual is informed that through effort he can achieve success. The funny thing is that when someone achieves success he's hated and people want to strip him of his hard-earned wealth!

The liberals rightly sense that something is wrong when they see the vast disparity in wealth between individuals. The problem lies in the capitalistic system itself and to rob someone from being successful at this game is a violation as now you change the rules in midstream.

The basic problem with our current form of capitalism is that its business model is based on that of a cancer cell. If you've ever sat in any corporate boardroom you've no doubt heard the mantra, profit, profit, profit! Any CEO that can't maintain a 20-40% yearly profit increase better get his golden parachute ready. This unrestricted growth can only result in one thing; self-destruction. After the earth is destroyed by strip mining, deforestation, air pollution and water poisoning what's left to exploit?

Any system that divorcees itself from the natural order is doomed to fail. The Soviet Union only lasted 70 years with its system of forced equality, which violated the right of the individual to reap the results of his effort. Capitalism being closer to the natural order will last longer than communism but it too will eventually come crashing down.

I will smite thee moneychanger!  

[Yeager]

After the earth is destroyed by strip mining, deforestation, air pollution and water poisoning what's left to exploit?
====
Thats what NASA is for.

Yeager

[leonid]

Kieren,
It's okay, I'm getting used to the name calling here.  It goes with being a liberal  

Thanks about explaining how Baptists interpret the Bible.  It kind of helped me understand how Baptists view their religion.

[Toad]

Leonid, I'd really like your opinion on this question I asked:

"Leonid, please give us an absolutely unequivocable definition of "wealth" or "wealthy" in this tax debate. What level would be the "excess of financial means"? At what height on Maslow's hierarchy does this occur?"

Also what "names" have you been called here that were offensive to you?

Thx

[Ripsnort]

With success comes money, with money comes a sense of accomplishment...in my case, watching a mutual fund grow for my childrens education should they choose to accept my gift of education.