Author Topic: Dowding, you seem upset by the way things are being run...what would you do?  (Read 1791 times)

Offline Wotan

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Dowding, you seem upset by the way things are being run...what would you do?
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2001, 03:23:00 PM »
<flame suit on>

 
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I am a free prince.....
and I have as much authority to make war on the whole World as he who has a hundred sail of ships at sea and an army of 100,000 men in the field.

Pirate Captain Charles Bellamy

Might makes right in the world regardless of whether it stands with the rightous or evil. The current world order will demonize anything that upsets the new "religion" of consumerism.

To some this is a direct threat to everything they are or wish to be. As much as the west claims it fights for "freedom" these others fight for their ideology. You would use violence in a second to protect or advance your "freedom" without regard to those "innocents" you kill.

 
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Great sorrow is the elixr of change  

The authority that gives the west the ability to pass judgement on those "others" comes not from morality but from might.

What you call freedom is really liberty. Liberty by definition is the licensing of freedom by the state. Each state through out the history of the world has granted liberty to its citizens. The difference only found in those license requirements.

All governments be they facist communist monarchs or "democracy" rule by the consent of the people. The people grant there consent by "tolerating" and submitting to the authority of that government.

All governments have their army corps and cannoneers ; its "police" to enforce its license requirements and its authority.

What makes the west "moral" depends on the degree they are willing to enforce their idea of "freedom". We could kill them all. All the bin ladens all the hussiens all those who would wage war to defend and advance their will. It all depends on how willing you are to hold on to your "morality" and to a degree your "liberty".

I fail to see how "kill the ragheads"
is any better then "kill the infidels"

I mean 500,000 iraqis are dying every year from world policy toward iraq.......that aint enough?

Offline Hangtime

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Dowding, you seem upset by the way things are being run...what would you do?
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2001, 03:24:00 PM »
Frankly; the entire sack of toejamhead terrorists ain't worth even one american troopers life. Not one.

Not when we have more expedient means at our disposal.

We got toys in the arsenal nobodys even seen yet. Time to use 'em, in my opinion.

So much for my fondest hopes...

When the 10th Mountain gets in there, there will be American casualties. A ground war, even a search and destroy; will likely cause some American lives to be lost. Absoultely nobody in the world can bring the pain like American Light Horse. Nobody. Like easymo sez. God bless 'em; if they go in I know they will make us proud. They always have.. every time.

I wish 'em well, will mourn the loss of every one who falls. I just hope they fall in action... not dragged away into the night while taking a piss, to be found eviserated the next morning by his buddies.

And, should the region collapse into itself, with India and Paksistan trading Atoms, what of our boys there then?

*sigh* I hope it don't happen... and I hope somebody here in the Pentagon has a plan for that scenario too.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline metronom

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Dowding, you seem upset by the way things are being run...what would you do?
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2001, 03:28:00 PM »
Dowding
Don't take it as an insult,it depends on who call you a communist.
And believe me, it is the simplest way to awoid an answer, mainly because this person or personas dont know the answer.
Some people here think that a couple of nukes and a few Rambos would do a nicely job, especialy against poor Villages and refugee camps.
Killin Terrorists and destroyin their weapons and camps is the main target today, no question. But what about tomorrow? Nobody can kill a whole nation (thank god) or an ideology with weapons. New weapons can be easily  buyed everythere on this planet, the children from today will tomorrow build new terrorist camps , thirsty for revenge. It's the idea what counts not the camps or weapons. And no Stealth bomber can kill such thing.
Only another Ideology can destroy an ideology. And thats a very long process.

And what should be like this new Ideology or Idea? I realy don't know.

Sailor

Offline Hangtime

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Dowding, you seem upset by the way things are being run...what would you do?
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2001, 03:34:00 PM »
Wotan, quotes and 19th century idealism have no hold on the minds of the present.. We are not fighting Sparta or the Mongol Horde.

And for every 'starved' iraqi there are 50,0000 more living in poverty and fear of immenent death. From their own tyrant. Not us.

Time to sweep the oligarchies and tyrants from the stage. The wars to end fanatical religous sectarinisim have begun. Will you fight for your beliefs? Or die for the enemys?
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Udie

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Dowding, you seem upset by the way things are being run...what would you do?
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2001, 03:36:00 PM »
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Originally posted by Wotan:
[QBI mean 500,000 iraqis are dying every year from world policy toward iraq.......that aint enough?[/QB]

 Wrong,  500,000 of them die every year because of their leader.  I bet any money he gets to "help" his people goes straight into his military.  Take him out of the picture and his cronies and I bet the mortality rate in iraq drops dramaticly.

 I can't wait until they link the anthrax to his sorry bellybutton so we can go kill him like we should have 10 years ago.  Hell we should tell all the leaders of contries that harbor terrorist, "give us the terrorist or we will kill YOU not your people, but YOU.  Oh wait that's against the law.  Too bad OBL and Saddam don't have any "laws" like that.

 I  think the tree of liberty is hungry and wants to be fed.

Offline Hobodog

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Dowding, you seem upset by the way things are being run...what would you do?
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2001, 03:44:00 PM »
Hey i dont give if the world refuses to help or let us get iraq now that they are connected then screw them.

Offline Toad

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Dowding, you seem upset by the way things are being run...what would you do?
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2001, 04:54:00 PM »
Why would you want to "hold" a barren hill in the wilds of Afghanistan?

I believe they're attempting to seek out and destroy the Taliban and OBL forces, wherever we find them.

Sounds like a perfect use of Special Operatons Forces to me. Find 'em, wait for night when we have a HUGE advantage, send in the Nightstalkers w/Special Forces, put a Spectre overhead. Kill as many as possible. Leave.

They can have a high desert hill covered with Taliban bodies. We sure don't need it. Move on to the next one.

The idea, I think, is to destroy the Taliban as a controlling force in Afghanistan, have a UN backed effort to "nation build" and get them some sort of decent political environment and economy going.

Occupy Afghanistan with US troops? Why?

We'll be moving on after this anyway. Troops will be needed elsewhere.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Nash

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Dowding, you seem upset by the way things are being run...what would you do?
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2001, 05:24:00 PM »
I read one of the articles by one of the Russian vets of it's war with Afghanistan. He says a large part of the reason why things went so poorly is they tried to fight it in the traditional way of securing and holding territory. He said that was useless... the Afghanistans didn't care, they'd just move someplace else. So the Russians would then try to secure and hold *that* territory... and again the Afghanistans just picked up and moved somewhere else. They were all just running around in cricles. It's not like they have assets that you can cut off.

I think the strategy that the US is kicking around seems just fine.

Offline Fatty

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Dowding, you seem upset by the way things are being run...what would you do?
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2001, 05:32:00 PM »
Ahh, the evils of consumerism.  The horror of the ability to choose what you want.

Even trying to keep an open mind, when the best one can come up with is "you evil capitalists keep selling goods, it's the new kind of imperialism!", it's a little hard to keep a straight face.

Offline weazel

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Dowding, you seem upset by the way things are being run...what would you do?
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2001, 05:59:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash:
I read one of the articles by one of the Russian vets of it's war with Afghanistan. He says a large part of the reason why things went so poorly is they tried to fight it in the traditional way of securing and holding territory. He said that was useless... the Afghanistans didn't care, they'd just move someplace else. So the Russians would then try to secure and hold *that* territory... and again the Afghanistans just picked up and moved somewhere else. They were all just running around in cricles. It's not like they have assets that you can cut off.

I think the strategy that the US is kicking around seems just fine.

and:

Occupy Afghanistan with US troops? Why?
We'll be moving on after this anyway. Troops will be needed elsewhere.


The whole point is don't let them re-occupy posistions we've already fought for, sounds like a good way to lose to me.

Offline Toad

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Dowding, you seem upset by the way things are being run...what would you do?
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2001, 06:08:00 PM »
Weazel, I'm sure we'll hold the airfields we need.  ;)

But the hills and valleys where we find 'em and kill 'em?  Nah.

We're not conquering Afghanistan, in fact that's specifically NOT a "war goal". We're removing the Taliban from power so that they can develop a new political/economic system under the guidance of the UN. Big difference.


Think of it as "hunting". We're going after them to kill them... and then we'll hunt some others. You don't occupy the forest after you've killed all the deer.. you find a new forest.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline weazel

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Dowding, you seem upset by the way things are being run...what would you do?
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2001, 06:13:00 PM »
I guess we will just have to see how it goes.....the media is reporting we have 100-200 US Army Rangers in southern Afghanistan right now on an operation against the Taliban, sounds like a snatch job in progress to me.  ;)

Offline Wotan

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Dowding, you seem upset by the way things are being run...what would you do?
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2001, 12:32:00 AM »
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And for every 'starved' iraqi there are 50,0000 more living in poverty and fear of immenent death. From their own tyrant. Not us.

 
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Wrong, 500,000 of them die every year because of their leader. I bet any money he gets to "help" his people goes straight into his military. Take him out of the picture and his cronies and I bet the mortality rate in iraq drops dramaticly.  

It is the west that props these animals up in the first place regardless of their butchery. Its only when they refuse to submit to our will that we decide they are evil and need to be stopped.

The Suadi royal family or the kuwaitis or the egyptians are terror regimes in there own right. They torture and kill and oppress as many of their own as hussien. Yet we give in aid billions to these nations. We dont campaign against them. Dont you believe for a second that they aren't developing the same weapons of mass destruction. Hell we probrably helped them. China is a prime example of this. We wouldn't dare attempt to tell them how to behave.

If and when the citizens of these countries throw out the current clowns they'll replace them with ones who in all likelyhood hate us.

No matter what we do they will hate us. And we must respond but dont wrap it in the flag and sell it as "patriotism". Or pretend to take the high ground. We must keep a strong pressence in that area of the world to keep oil cheap. Part of remaining strong is responding to injury 10 fold. Thats just a fact of life.

It may let you sleep better at night convinced these fellas are evil incarnate and how different they are from us. You call for blood living on this side of the world but if you were there you would do the same.

 
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Time to sweep the oligarchies and tyrants from the stage. The wars to end fanatical religous sectarinisim have begun. Will you fight for your beliefs? Or die for the enemys?

Sounds like your ready for a "crusade"
There are many things I would die for but hypocracy is not one of them. I would die to defend the innocent not just the ones that agree with me. And I'm sure you would to. But I make no claim of self-rightous propoganda. Bin laden will die ,someday hussein will and when the next bastard comes along he will to. There's no morality behind that just the sword.

As for consumerism well when it reduces the value of a human being to a "demographic" then use pyscological tricks to sell him things he neither needs nor is good for him is wrong. Consumerism reduces the individual into a "mass" market. Its not "here's my product would you like to buy it". Its targeted and pushed just like a drug. But it would take a year to type what I think of "consumerism" but I'll stop here. But make no mistake there is a difference in "capitalism" and "consumerism". I'm sure you see that.

Offline Replicant

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Dowding, you seem upset by the way things are being run...what would you do?
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2001, 06:09:00 AM »
I agree with the bombing BUT whatever happens in Afghanistan it will not stop Terrorism, even in Afghanistan!  We have to remember that hatred is bred from a very early age so unless we somehow re-educate them all there will always be terrorism in one form or another.  Remember also that with some many fanatics all around the world it only takes one person to make a huge terrorist impact.  

So, at the moment we continue invading Afghanistan and hopefully we'll scare terrorists into facing up to what they could come up against, but as with any conflict there will always be someone wanting revenge and this is when years of hatred shows it's ugly head and terrorism commences again.

Regards

Nexx
NEXX

Offline Toad

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Dowding, you seem upset by the way things are being run...what would you do?
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2001, 08:31:00 AM »
Saudi Arabia gets no aid from the US. It is a donor nation. Kuwait was as well, at least before the Iraq war; haven't found any numbers since.

Egypt has been given US aid and lots of it. They don't have the oil money and I think they were rewarded because Jimmy Carter got Sadat to shake hands with Begin. IMO, the massive aid and friendship to Egypt was theoretically going to show some other area nations that leaving Israel alone could be beneficial.


The Suadi royal family or the kuwaitis or the egyptians are terror regimes in there own right. They torture and kill and oppress as many of their own as hussien.

The Saudi's, Kuwaitis and Egyptians are certainly not democracies, nor are they "terror regimes". Please supply data showing that they kill or oppress anywhere near as many as Hussein. Otherwise this is just a piece of BS rhetoric.

For starters, just match this one number:
 http://slate.msn.com/Gist/96-09-26/Gist.asp  

"In 1988, Saddam Hussein savaged the Kurds. His troops razed hundreds of Kurdish villages, massacred thousands of Kurdish fighters and civilians, and forcibly relocated many more to southern Iraq. A poison-gas attack on the town of Halabja killed as many as 7,000 Kurds."

When have the Saudis, Kuwaitis or Egyptians killed 7,000 of their citizens in one attack on them by military force?


Try checking Human Rights Watch and comparing the reports on Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Egypt against Iraq. HRW isn't a real right wing organization but they seem to be able to differentiate between Iraq and the rest.
 http://www.hrw.org/index.html


It seems to me that what you have missed is this: BOTH the UN and/or the US are very reluctant to militarily interfere in the INTERNAL affairs of any nation. That is if they are abusing their own people it has to be extremely egregious to warrant intervention.

The creation of UN mandated "no fly zones" over Northern & Southern Iraq would be an example. Even at this, it's not designed as an aggressive military operation.

The Balkan situation is another example of military intervention. However, this happened in a nation that basically came apart and split into opposing entities. Internal or not? Could be argued both ways, I suppose.

OTOH, when a nation acts outside its borders, threatening the existence of its neighbors both the UN and the US will and do act militarily. The Prime example of this recently is the Gulf War.

Now, imagine if you will Saudi Arabia attacking Kuwait. Hmmm, pretty far fetched, isn't it?

Kuwait attacking anyone at all?

Egypt? Yeah, possibly. They were in on all the anti-Israel wars. However, it appears that political engagement, massive aid and military exchanges with the US _may_ have made a difference in Egypt. They haven't rattled a saber at any external potential foe since the famous handshake. That may change, but for now at least things seem to be much better than they were in 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973. And, like it or not, that the result of being "propped up by the West".

Bottom line is the US/UN WILL militarily engage a nation that is acting aggressively outside its own borders. I think that may have been the lesson taken from WW2.

The US/UN WILL NOT militarily engage a nation that acts aggressively within its own borders against its own citizens.

Other means are used to try and evolve the situation to a more suitable one. These include sanctions, aid, political engagement, etc...


How would YOU change Saudi Arabia? Yes, it's a harsh government is some respects and certainly not a democracy (Who says all governments must be a democracy? What right does any outsider have to demand that?).

Will you invade? They aren't attacking anyone outside their borders.

Will you try to secretly destablize thier government so that it changes to something else? Economic Sanctions? They get NO Foreign Aid from the US and they have plenty of oil.  

Or will you try to befriend them and show them a better way?

So what's your solution Wotan? It's always far easier to "tear down" than to "build up". What should be the US/UN position vis-a-vis Saudi Arabia or Kuwait?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!