Atheism and the USA, followup

[SaburoS]

Arlo,
I am not a threat to you.
The religious right is a threat to me.
I think those that say they are truly Christian should practice it and forgive those they disagree with and move on

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[Bodhi]

Kind of amazing that this discussion has degenerated into whether atheism is a religion and whether the right wing religous wackos are trying to destroy the US.

I seem to remember and stand by my statements:

That the US was founded on and with a basis of Judeo / Christian ethics.  

That the 10 commandments were good guidlines to basic living.  

That the pledge of Allegiance was a good nationalistic guideline.  

I never advocated the merging of religion and government.  

I advocated the continued display of the commandments in court houses as a good example.  

That intolerance of any ideas was wrong, so long as they did not hurt the sanctity of our nation.

That the direction of this country is no ones business but the american people.

That the US Constitution is law, and subject to our popular vote as to change.


Ya'll can argue till you are blue in the face.  In the end, we (those of voting ability in the US), as a people of the United States of America are going to forge our future.  Right or wrong, it will happen.  Thats the beauty of this free land.  We have the right to speak freely.  We have the right to freely express our beliefs.  We have the right in majority to change our governmental direction.  We are free.

[Nash]

"The ideologists of the conservative revolution superimposed a vision of national redemption upon their dissatisfaction with liberal culture and with the loss of authoritative faith. They posed as the true champions of nationalism, and berated the socialists for their internationalism, and the liberals for their pacifism and their indifference to national greatness."


...Fritz Stern, The Politics of Cultural Despair: A Study in the Rise of the Germanic Ideology. 1961.


"Christians have an obligation, a mandate, a commission, a holy responsibility to reclaim the land for Jesus Christ -- to have dominion in civil structures, just as in every other aspect of life and godliness.

But it is dominion we are after. Not just a voice.

It is dominion we are after. Not just influence.

It is dominion we are after. Not just equal time.

It is dominion we are after.

World conquest. That's what Christ has commissioned us to accomplish. We must win the world with the power of the Gospel. And we must never settle for anything less...

Thus, Christian politics has as its primary intent the conquest of the land -- of men, families, institutions, bureaucracies, courts, and governments for the Kingdom of Christ."

...

George Grant, The Changing of the Guard: Biblical Principles for Political Action. 1995

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
Well sir since you are so up in arms about religion how bout the whole "free exercise there of" part in the constitution.  The ACLU has gone after many of groups and it seems they are hell bent on getting any thing from santa clause to the easter bunny out of the limelight come holliday times.  Hell they have never met a boyscout troop that they didn't want to sue.

Next time you defend the ACLU for their stand up of "rights" ask yourself how many 2nd amendment issues they've defended......there's not that many.  

They are a communist socialist organization that disguises themselves in the mantra of civil liberties.....hell just look at the founder.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the constitution but to me the ACLU seems more like a trojen horse than a defender of rights.

Guns, I'm with  yah.. the ACLU seems to be a massive pile of contradictions to someone on the right.. or the left.. or in the center. Cripes, sometimes I wonder if they're freakin scizoid.. but I'm certain tthey ain't communists.. in fact they banned commies from membership back in the 1920's.

But, regardless of which side of the political spectrum you come from or what the mood of the country is regarding issues.. if yer rights get stepped on, the ACLU is where you go to get assistance. Doesn't matter if yer a bell-ringing pain in the bellybutton Witness or a black woman with her wide fat bellybutton in a seat on the front of the bus.

Yah.. I agree with yah; I think they shirked the 2nd issues.. wish they were as vile and rabid about protecting those as they are about boy scouts and statues of dead jews.. but when the NRA needed a hand with a position brief the ACLU opens their files for them.

The Wiki list of critics of the ACLU is long and interesting.. as a sample I've snipped and pasted just the section on Cristian Critics.. hope you'll read through it and maybe go look at some of the other folks they've pissed off...

Conservative Christian Critics of the ACLU

At the grassroots level, the ACLU often involves itself in cases involving the separation of church and state. Therefore, some Christians, including many who may be considered conservative Christian, often take issue with its positions. Many in this community contend that the ACLU is part of an effort to remove all references to religion from American government.

In 2004, for example, the ACLU of Southern California (ACLU/SC) threatened to sue the city of Redlands, California if it did not remove a picture of a cross from the city's seal. The ACLU/SC argued that having a cross on the seal amounted to a government-sponsored endorsement of Christianity and violated separation of church and state. The city complied with the ACLU/SC and removed the cross from all city vehicles, business cards, and police badges. However, the issue was put on the November 2005 ballot [49]. The ACLU/SC also threatened Los Angeles County, California if it did not remove an image of a cross from its seal. As in the Redlands case, the county board complied with the demands and voted to remove the cross from its seal as well. There was a petition against the changing of the seal, which ended on August 15, 2005 [50].

In 1990, Pat Robertson founded the American Center for Law and Justice, as a counterweight to the ACLU, which is perceived by Robertson as "liberal" and "hostile to traditional American values"; another non-profit legal center, the Thomas More Law Center, also bills itself as the "Christian answer to the ACLU."

After the September 11, 2001 attacks, the Rev. Jerry Falwell remarked that the ACLU, by trying to "secularize America," had provoked the wrath of God, and therefore caused those terrorist attacks. (Falwell later apologized for the remark.) Other critics of the ACLU do not make such strong accusations, but claim that the organization pushes the concept of separation of church and state beyond its original meaning. The ACLU and Jerry Falwell sometimes find themselves on the same side. Notably, the ACLU filed an amicus brief supporting a suit by Falwell against the state of Virginia. The suit, which was successful, overturned the Virginia constitution's ban on the incorporation of Churches. In addition, the ACLU has defended the rights of a Christian church to run anti-Santa ads on Boston subways, the rights to religious expression by jurors, and the rights of Christian students to distribute religious literature in school. [51]

While the ACLU does oppose the use of crosses in public monuments [52], [53], there have been false allegations that the ACLU has urged the removal of cross-shaped headstones from federal cemeteries and has opposed prayer by soldiers; such charges have been deemed to be urban legends. [54]

Many minority religious groups like Jehovah's Witnesses and Muslims have at times been defended by the ACLU. In the Mormon community, the ACLU is viewed positively by some, who cite Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe, a case litigated by the ACLU on behalf of a Mormon student concerning school prayer [55]. However, a good number of Mormons, including some local leaders, are strongly against the activities of the ACLU [56].

Jehovah's Witnesses were involved in twenty-three Supreme Court rulings between 1938 and 1946 over religious objections to serving in the armed forces and over saluting the flag and reciting the pledge of allegiance [57], over local and state ordinances prohibiting the Witnesses from publishing criticisms of the Roman Catholic church [58], as well as over government reluctance to prosecute anti-Witness vigilantes; the ACLU was directly involved in these cases [59]. The ACLU's involvement with Jehovah's Witnesses continues, and they joined the Witnesses in a 2002 case over doorbell-ringing [60].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_Liberties_Union#History

Yup.. lotsa contradictions... but I think we need a watchdog group like this that'll take a civil rights case regardless of who's wheaties get crapped in.

If the rights of society's most vulnerable members are denied, everybody's rights are imperiled.

[Hap]

Originally posted by Hangtime
a practice that has lead to murder, rape, genocide and despotisim for over 2000 years.

you err.  and confuse and or conflate matters consequent, subsequent, and coincident.

hap

p.s. murder, rape, genocide, and despotisim pre-date Christ.  Evil and sin cause them.  They are not the result of belief nor form of governent, way of thinking, or manner of living.

People who cite religion, government, ways of thinking, manners of living to murder, rape, commit genocide, and acts of despotism to justify the unjustifiable evince that evil and sin deforms.

[lazs2]

The aclu has stated numerous times that it does not believe that the second amendment is a right for individuals.   That it is a "collective right" whatever that is.... that it only guarentees that the government can have arms.   The aclu is a lefty socialist group that has no interest in individual rights.  

As for the ten commandments.... I would venture to say that they had a great deal to do with our laws and the they have a place in the lobby of a courtroom...  several other religions have passages that would fit just as well and I have no objection to them any more than having quotes from philosophers or whatever.   Those who focus on the religious aspect are paranoid or agendized.

I somehow do not feel that christianity is attacking my freedoms in this country I think that we need to be vigilant when they do tho... stupid laws that restrict my freedom are evil no matter if a religious group or a socialist group instigates em.  

lazs

[Hap]

Originally posted by lazs2
laws that restrict my freedom

all laws restrict freedom.  actually they don't restrict anything.  law, if you're caught, will set in motion civially punitive measures.  

all laws restrict freedom.  in fact, it's quite a popular thing to do.  folks want folks' freedom restriced.  the devil is in the details.

hap

[lazs2]

sorry hap... I meant laws that restrict my freedom for no good reason and/or laws that take away human rights.  I am an individualist.   So long as what I do causes you no harm you have no right to stop me from doing it.

lazs

[SaburoS]

Okay, I better check my temperature cause as to the ACLU and the Second Ammendment, I agree with lazs.
The ACLU is wrong in that case, IMHO.
I don't have a problem  with them in most of their cases though.
******
As to Religion being the root of evil (if that's what I think some may say), no, religion may be used as the battle cry of "evil" thinking individuals.
Have there been some wrongdoings done in human history with religion/God used as a rallying point? Sure, since most people seem to believe in a God/Supreme Being, it shouldn't be unusual for religion to be used as a rallying point and/or "motive".

To cite a couple of non-religious massacres:
Pol Pot didn't use religion when he had his troops murder a million of his own fellow citizens.
The Japanese didn't use God as a reason in the rape of Nanking.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by SaburoS
Okay, I better check my temperature cause as to the ACLU and the Second Ammendment, I agree with lazs.
The ACLU is wrong in that case, IMHO.
I don't have a problem  with them in most of their cases though.
******
As to Religion being the root of evil (if that's what I think some may say), no, religion may be used as the battle cry of "evil" thinking individuals.
Have there been some wrongdoings done in human history with religion/God used as a rallying point? Sure, since most people seem to believe in a God/Supreme Being, it shouldn't be unusual for religion to be used as a rallying point and/or "motive".

To cite a couple of non-religious massacres:
Pol Pot didn't use religion when he had his troops murder a million of his own fellow citizens.
The Japanese didn't use God as a reason in the rape of Nanking.

You're on to something there sir.  Let's not forget about Stalin.

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by SaburoS
Okay, I better check my temperature cause as to the ACLU and the Second Ammendment, I agree with lazs.
The ACLU is wrong in that case, IMHO.
I don't have a problem  with them in most of their cases though.

Yup. Infuriates the hell outta me; some of the stuff they consider 'important' seems trivial at best, diruptive in the routine; 'anti-american' at worst. Still; a as a Civil Rights watchdog.. glad they are there. Sons-a-Beyatches may someday revist the 2'nd position stand; if the right case comes along.

Originally posted by SaburoS
As to Religion being the root of evil (if that's what I think some may say), no, religion may be used as the battle cry of "evil" thinking individuals.
Have there been some wrongdoings done in human history with religion/God used as a rallying point? Sure, since most people seem to believe in a God/Supreme Being, it shouldn't be unusual for religion to be used as a rallying point and/or "motive".

To cite a couple of non-religious massacres:
Pol Pot didn't use religion when he had his troops murder a million of his own fellow citizens.
The Japanese didn't use God as a reason in the rape of Nanking.

Sure.. not ALL modern tyrants and despots are in 'leauge' with a religious drummer... but it's certainly evident that a new 'holy war' is being brewed up. If the cries of 'Allah Akbar" are any indication at all of what's to come, then we need to be damn sure that our response is not a religious retribution... or a holy war of our own.

Crush them, YES. For crimes against humanity... without a shred of religious symbolisim displayed by us at any time in the process.

[Arlo]

Originally posted by SaburoS
...and that's not nearly as laughable as those that keep trying to paint Atheism as a religion.

Again, how does an Atheist practice his Atheism?

Take it up with the law, Subo. It classifies it as such and as such protects your right to such a choice of belief. If that bothers you then crusade against that law first. As for the rest ... you make much ado bout nuthin' .... pretty much like every obsessive compulsive thread started by Chairboy to prove Atheists rule and Christians drool.

[Arlo]

Originally posted by SaburoS
Arlo,
Here's a scenario for you:

Judges are now allowed to erect any religious staues/monuments they wish.
Now they get this idea that Christianity in the courtroom is a good idea.

So now I appear before that same judge. He finds out that I am an Atheist.
He rules against me unfairly.

That is one scary scenario.

Yeah. It's scary. But it's just a boogyman scenario. Much like a scenario where vampires come in the night and eat your head. Get back to me when it threatens to actually become a reality and I'll join you in defense of said boogyman.

[Arlo]

Originally posted by SaburoS
Arlo,
I am not a threat to you.
The religious right is a threat to me.
I think those that say they are truly Christian should practice it and forgive those they disagree with and move on

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

I didn't say you were. I said atheists who are currently in arms and afraid the word "God" is a state sponsored religion are acting silly. It's not a threat to you. At least not yet. Chances are slim it'll happen unless our current system is completely destructured. If that happens, the word "God" is really the least of your problems. Like I said, get back to me when the threat actually materializes for everyone to see.

[Arlo]

Originally posted by Nash
"The ideologists of the conservative revolution superimposed a vision of national redemption upon their dissatisfaction with liberal culture and with the loss of authoritative faith. They posed as the true champions of nationalism, and berated the socialists for their internationalism, and the liberals for their pacifism and their indifference to national greatness."


...Fritz Stern, The Politics of Cultural Despair: A Study in the Rise of the Germanic Ideology. 1961.


"Christians have an obligation, a mandate, a commission, a holy responsibility to reclaim the land for Jesus Christ -- to have dominion in civil structures, just as in every other aspect of life and godliness.

But it is dominion we are after. Not just a voice.

It is dominion we are after. Not just influence.

It is dominion we are after. Not just equal time.

It is dominion we are after.

World conquest. That's what Christ has commissioned us to accomplish. We must win the world with the power of the Gospel. And we must never settle for anything less...

Thus, Christian politics has as its primary intent the conquest of the land -- of men, families, institutions, bureaucracies, courts, and governments for the Kingdom of Christ."

...

George Grant, The Changing of the Guard: Biblical Principles for Political Action. 1995

Is he a senator or congressman?