Author Topic: global warning update.  (Read 6887 times)

Offline Curval

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global warning update.
« Reply #180 on: June 08, 2006, 02:53:05 PM »
See Rule #5
« Last Edit: June 08, 2006, 02:55:18 PM by Skuzzy »
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline lukster

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« Reply #181 on: June 08, 2006, 02:59:20 PM »
Blame me for the damn chart. I linked it without reading the whole article. While I was not the first to imply that it meant the ice was melting, it did at first appear to me that's what it meant. All of us make mistakes and we learn and move on. Few, if any of us here are experts on the subject and even the experts cannot agree among themselves.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #182 on: June 08, 2006, 03:03:26 PM »
See rule #2


self edited by Holden
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline Curval

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« Reply #183 on: June 08, 2006, 03:05:49 PM »
lukster, thanks for that, I read it wrong too.  No biggie.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #184 on: June 08, 2006, 08:23:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
. All of us make mistakes and we learn and move on. Few, if any of us here are experts on the subject and even the experts cannot agree among themselves.


Give that man a ceeegar. :aok
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #185 on: June 09, 2006, 06:33:36 AM »
Ok, again, Jackal:
"I`m not having much of a melting problem here Angus. I feel for your loss. "

In the short run, my area could well do with a little warming. Here's where it first starts ;)
Not sure how much warming your place can take, but it'll get there nicely after a short while, after all, this is global. Oh, me maybe bad, it's just LOCAL warming, and just near the poles.
Read up about the predicted effects of polar melting on the climates in the US. Well, of course it's all conspiring government fed scientists who say-so-whatever, but bear in mind that they did predict both the ozon layer holes and the caps melting. Must have been a lucky dice :D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #186 on: June 09, 2006, 08:53:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Read up about the predicted effects of polar melting on the climates in the US.  


OK Angus...........I`ll do my best to work that in, but I gotta tell ya.......I`m pretty well backed up here on my reading list in the doomsday department. First of all I have to work my way through this stack of books predicting the coming Iceage. After that I guess I will start on reading the books concerning the predictions of the super volcanoes of Yellowstone erupting.(Of course in the long run they just end up with another Iceage, but hey.....)
Then on the list.....I have a number of reads concerning the coming total nuclear war which undoubtedly will wipe out 99.9 percent of the earth`s population.
After that, I`m in a little of a frenzy over what should be on the list as most important. I mean we got the books on the earth`s collisions, the books dealing with Cali sluffing off into the sea. ( That one really concerns me because I`m afraid when it happens, if there are many survivors, they will want to migrate to Texas and very few of them are like Laz. :) )
Let`s see..there are numerous books concerning the total population being wiped out by a virus or superflu. Then there are the books concerning the imminent threat of the Sun exploding/changing and frying us all.
Wheeew....man I gotta tell ya....there are just too many to list. OH! OH! I almost forgot the ones dealing with the predictions of London becoming a new fishing reef.
It may be a while bud. :)


Quote
but bear in mind that they did predict both the ozon layer holes and the caps melting. Must have been a lucky dice


Like I said.....I warned em about the damn hairspray....noone listens.....and I always stood next to the guy with the "Repent Now..The End Is Near!" sign too.

Predictions are actualy made before an event is allready taking place.
Card counters and fight riggers. They never make it in Vegas. :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: June 09, 2006, 08:56:37 AM by Jackal1 »
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #187 on: June 09, 2006, 09:11:54 AM »
Jackal:
Maybe you had your nose full of doomsday preachers. I must confess that I've been chuckling about some of the stuff promoted and recently I stumbled across a website that doubtlessly is suicide inspiring!
(armageddon.com?)
But don't get lost in the jungle bro. If you try to hair out what's actual, well, you'll see some things that have a foot in them.
Ok, meteors wiped out almost all life on earth more than once, Us humans could theoretically at the push of a button wipe out almost all advanced lifeforms on the planet, and, importantly, screw up the planet's global status with our until-now-unknown interference.
I'm not getting there. (Although we could definately have a jolly good time with what-if's ;)). But what I see through the mess, is that the bloody blue planet actually seems to be warming, and since it was predicted pretty accurately and seems to hold water, I honestly think that it is a fact not to be discarded but concerned and looked into.
That is also the case, the established "fact" is quite well established in the western world with the USA for some reason being sceptic.
A new conspiracy theory perhaps :D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #188 on: June 09, 2006, 09:41:12 AM »
OK Angus..now you`ve done it.
You broke my scheduled reading list. :)
Thought you might find this interesting.
Much to the chagrin of one of our more prominent posters, I`m not much of a link poster due to the fact that I don`t go through the hassle to find out what is embedded on these site.......so I just cut `N paste. :)
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Polar history shows melting ice-cap may be a natural cycle

The Scotsman | March 9, 2005
By IAN JOHNSTON

THE melting of sea ice at the North Pole may be the result of a centuries-old natural cycle and not an indicator of man-made global warming, Scottish scientists have found.

After researching the log-books of Arctic explorers spanning the past 300 years, scientists believe that the outer edge of sea ice may expand and contract over regular periods of 60 to 80 years. This change corresponds roughly with known cyclical changes in atmospheric temperature.

The finding opens the possibility that the recent worrying changes in Arctic sea ice are simply the result of standard cyclical movements, and not a harbinger of major climate change.

The amount of sea ice is currently near its lowest point in the cycle and should begin to increase within about five years.

As a result, Dr Chad Dick, a Scottish scientist working at the Norwegian Polar Institute in Tromso, believes the next five to ten years will be a critical period in our understanding of sea ice and the impact, if any, of long-term global warming.

Concern has been expressed recently that animals such as polar bears could become extinct because sea ice is disappearing. The new research by Dr Dick and a colleague, Dr Dimitry Divine, gives rise to hopes the melting will stop soon.

However, Dr Dick warned that if the ice carried on melting, it would mean that man-made global warming had disrupted the natural process - with potentially disastrous results.

He said: "Cycles of 60 to 80 years have been identified before in atmospheric temperature records in the Arctic. The old records that we recovered from ships’ logs and other sources may show that similar cycles are present in sea ice.

"I’ve this gut feeling that within ten years from now we’ll know for certain whether we’re losing sea ice long term or whether it’s coming back.

"If it doesn’t come back it shows we are in serious trouble. Sea ice has a whole lot of effects on climate and it is pretty important."

Sea ice protects the northern coastlines of Canada, Russia and the United States from erosion caused by storms. If it melted, waves crashing on to the shoreline could release vast stores of carbon dioxide stored in permafrost, which would increase global warming still further.

Dr Dick said the research did not suggest that global warming was not a reality.

"You couldn’t say, ‘The sea ice is coming back so therefore there’s no global warming’. It’s never going to be that simple," he said. "But the question now is the extent of global warming, how fast it will happen and whether there are any surprises on the way.

"We know there is warming and that it’s caused by humans, but it will be a great relief to many people if the ice comes back as opposed to going away."

He added that some people might be pleased to see less ice in the Arctic as it would finally open up the North-west Passage trade route - sought by many of the explorers whose log-books were used in the study - between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans.

"If the sea ice continues to disappear it could cut something like 5,000km off the sea route from Europe to Japan and China. There are people who think that’s a good thing," Dr Dick said.

"Humans are great at adapting to change. We might lose polar bears and some species of seal, but most people don’t worry about that, it doesn’t affect them. And if it means their stereo can be shipped from China more quickly, they are happy with that."

Among the hundreds of mariners whose records were examined by Dr Dick were the noted Scottish arctic explorer Sir John Ross and his nephew Sir James Clark Ross.

Sir James discovered the magnetic North Pole in 1831 after earlier accompanying his uncle to the Arctic in 1818. He then began to explore the Antarctic, giving his name to the Ross Sea, Ross Island and the Ross Ice Shelf.

The polar explorer Clive Waghorn, who lives in Limekilns, Fife, said the idea of regular periodic changes in sea ice was "entirely credible".

"You read stories of the old whalers and sailors in the Arctic in some seasons coming back with no catches at all because they weren’t able to get as far north as they could in other seasons," he said.

"Whalers were always rather secretive about where they had been because they didn’t want people knowing where they had been if they had a successful trip, but I would say as the record [of log-books] goes, it’s pretty objective."

He said he shuddered to think what would happen if the Arctic lost its sea ice.

"I think ecologically it would be a bit of a disaster. It would also open the Arctic up for mineral and oil exploration, which would be another disaster," Mr Waghorn said.

In January, the international Climate Change Task Force warned that global warming could reach a "point of no return" in ten to 20 years by which time atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations would be so great that any attempt to reduce them would be futile.

Robin Harper, a Scottish Green Party MSP, said that while he hoped Arctic sea ice would return, it could actually be a false sign of hope that global warming was not as serious as previously thought.

"All it would prove is that global warming doesn’t affect that particular cycle," he said.

"There would be no reason for us to be complacent if it comes back."

Gulf Stream could be ‘switched off’

THERE are fears that the disappearance of polar ice could have a catastrophic effect on the world’s climate.

The presence of large areas of ice helps to moderate the world’s temperature by reflecting the sun’s rays and keeping the planet cool.

As the ice sheets reduce, this exposes more areas of water, which absorb more heat from the sun, warming the planet and reducing areas of ice still further.

Perhaps the biggest fear is that cold melt-water could "switch off" the Gulf Stream and even the Earth’s system of hot and cold currents, known as the Ocean Conveyor.

The Gulf Stream has a major effect on Britain’s climate, allowing palm trees to grow on the west coast of Scotland. Without it, Scotland’s climate would be more like Canada’s.

The Ocean Conveyor has stopped flowing in the past - 8,200 years ago and 12,700 years ago - in an event associated with the start of an ice age. Melting sea ice will not have an impact on sea levels as it already displaces its own weight of water. Large land-based ice sheets on Greenland and in the Antarctic are the main sources of concern.

Huge quantities of carbon - a major greenhouse gas - are stored frozen on the ocean floor and in permafrost in Siberia and Canada particularly. Melting ice would release this into the atmosphere, further increasing global warming.

This is one reason why scientists fear the world could reach a "tipping point" in about ten to 20 years time when we will not be able to reverse global warming.

Sea ice has a calming effect on the water, as waves cannot travel very far. This protects northern Arctic circle coastlines from erosion which would release carbon stored in permafrost.

In a warmer world, more water from the sea will evaporate. Greater evaporation actually helps increase the amount of sea ice as fresh water running off the land freezes more easily than salt water in the sea.

But, as always in climate studies, the situation is complex, because while some of the water vapour will form clouds which reflect sunlight, it also helps to retain warmth, particularly at night.
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Offline Mini D

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« Reply #189 on: June 09, 2006, 09:58:17 AM »
I remember reading up on how Curling was invented in Scottland. I actually looked it up because that seemed such an odd combination. I suggest most people actually interested in this subject of climate variations look it up too.

Or you could just sit and talk about a .jpg file.

Offline Mini D

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« Reply #190 on: June 09, 2006, 10:01:05 AM »
Another very odd thing about the polar icecap data...

Doesn't that spike correspond somewhat to the age of the earth as traced back in the bible?

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #191 on: June 09, 2006, 10:06:35 AM »
beet... go ahead and repeat the things you have said they (none of them ) answer my questions to you.

I asked you how much we as humans were contributing to global climate changes.... you sort of answered that... you say that we are increasing co2 at a certain rate... you seem to admit that if we managed to double c02 (100 years at current rates) that we would increase temp around the globe maybe one degree...

That is of course.... if nothing else happened...  if we didn't suddenly in the next few centuries hit one of them there global cooling trends.... (your ilk, chicken littles, would sing a different tune then).

But... I admit... man is contributing...  How much can we affect the outcome tho?   What can we do?  I said... taking a cup of water from the ocean reduces it's level... shooting the next british tourist reduces global warming..  both of these things would "affect" ... the former the level of water in the ocean and the later the man made effects of global warming.

I agree that nuke power is good but... not to reduce co2 or man made global warming but to get cheap electricity and increase the standard of living of all people.

Soooo.... if every peson on the earth quit driving cars or flying around in jets.....How much would it slow global warming?   What would the result be?  what would the tempreture be in 10 years? 100 years?  300 years?

What do we as people need to do to stop global warming... what would you do if you were all powerful... what would your rules be and how much would they "help".

You would of course guarentee a stable sun shinning exactly the same for cenmturies and no global cooling trend ever happening again...

All these hardships you would propose would be for a provable outcome with proveable results correct?  they would be based on no natural phenom's ever getting in the way of your model and...

They would of course be contignent on man not making any progress in transportation more than a 2006 honda civic or a coal fired powerplant in the next 100 years as your model assumes.

lastly.... and this one has bugged me since the 70's predicted ice age....

What will you chicken littles suggest we do if/when we enter a global cooling cycle?

lazs
« Last Edit: June 09, 2006, 10:08:40 AM by lazs2 »

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #192 on: June 09, 2006, 01:37:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy
Upshot is this.  I really do not see anyone on the planet as being intelligent enough, having access to all the variables involved, having the time, nor having the tools to be able to figure it out with any level of precision.
Did it ever occur to you that the Cray Supercomputer I spoke of being used by a team of scientists, capable of 10 mips (that's Million of Instructions Per Second, for those of you without an IBM background) might just have been commissioned because there is so much data to analyse, and because there are so many different types of data and because there are so many variables, and that they might actually be doing objective analysis and want to arrive at rational conclusions using the available data? Or do you seriously go along with Holden's fatuous suggestion that the computers have been programmed "to yield the desired result"?

And... just because the research is a work in progress does not, IMHO, give Humankind an excuse not to look for energy alternatives which emit less CO2 than the burning of fossil fuels.
Quote
Some places are warmer, others are cooler. How about the polar ice caps melting due to higher levels of exposure to ultra-violet radiation from the Sun, due to the ozone depletion in those areas of the globe?
When assessing the earth's warming or cooling trend, I think there's more to it than flipping through temperature charts for one or two particular places. I agree with what you said about the ozone problem. Again, this should not be used as an excuse to do nothing about developing other sources of non-carbon energy.


Lazs - I meant it - I'm not typing it all out again. Have a nice weekend.

Offline Curval

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« Reply #193 on: June 09, 2006, 02:34:20 PM »
"What will you chicken littles suggest we do if/when we enter a global cooling cycle?"

What do you suggest ostrich big?
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Offline lukster

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« Reply #194 on: June 09, 2006, 03:27:48 PM »
So this Aggie professor calls CNN and tells 'em the science dept at Texas A&M is sending a manned mission to the sun to take core samples to determine the sun's stability and it's affect on global warming. When the reporter at CNN stops laughing he tells the Aggie that the rocket will burn up long before it can land on the sun. The prof smugly replies, "we thought of that, we're landing at night".