Author Topic: Gay marriage - why?  (Read 3116 times)

Offline Yeager

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Gay marriage - why?
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2006, 07:47:22 AM »
well there goes the theory that nash was either on the run or under arrest :aok
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Offline Ghosth

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Gay marriage - why?
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2006, 07:49:26 AM »
Sure took the heat off the war on  terrorists, iran,troops in  irag
and everything else Bush didn't want to talk about didn't it.

Its like a kneejerk reaction. Slow news week coming, thing the press is going to gangbang you again? Have a rep senator try to sneak something by the senate ending any possiblilty of gay marrage.

Hey presto!


Fact remains the Federal Govt has NO right to be in this issue at all.
Its not a federal issue.

Offline Westy

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« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2006, 07:55:10 AM »
Bingo Ghosth.  The "war on immigrants" is petering out  so to keep things rolling they pull out old reliable - "homophobia."  In the meantime they've also got a Canadian "open border "crisis" warming up in the bullpen.

 Two of the three elements of the Rove Doctrine are in motion.  "Fear" and "anti-queer."  As election day comes closer they'll spin up "smeer" and shift "fear" into overdrive.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 07:58:17 AM by Westy »

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2006, 07:56:13 AM »
But... Marriage is under attack!!

I'm pretty sure it's those same people who were attacking Christmas and Easter. Pretty soon they'll attack the 4th of July and Labor day... then you'll all be sorry I tell ya!.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2006, 08:01:09 AM »
nash... watching a democratic frontrunner for gov here in kalifornia.... He said that he was gonna tell us what he stood for..

"I am strongly pro choice"  " I am strongly in support of our teachers and strengthening public schools" "I am strongly for the environment"

So what is the difference?  How do you seperate this guy from the paristites like the pro choice movement and..... the anti choice/anti voucher pro teacher union and..... the whacko environmentalists...  

In short.... pandering to the whacko religious left..

I think that Bush is trying to help his party gather up the votes.... He did say that he would support an amendment for marriage when he was re-elected tho.  soooo...

He is doing what he said he would do.

He is not my idea of the best president but... he is miles ahead of the klintons and the way they destroyed the country and he is miles ahead of the democrats that he ran against.

His legacy will be the two supreme court judges he put on the court and the many other judges..  The rolling back of gun control laws and restoration of gun rights.

So far as the amendment.... good thing to force those politicians to take a stand on it.

So far as wasting time?  sheesh... like that never happens!   that's all they do is waste time.

lazs

Offline Mighty1

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Gay marriage - why?
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2006, 08:08:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
Of course (and this was a no-brainer, but as usual) you're right.

And.... I think that even the vast majority of the Bush loyal recognizes that.

So lets skip ahead a few pages. Here's what we're looking at....

A group of people quite used to compromise. Extreme compromise. Compromise to the extent that these highly religious people will abandon the poor, advocate war, and blame any catastrophe directly on the sins of those who perish.... as long as the President gives a wink and a nod to God.

They will compromise as long as the denial of birth control is at least given some manner of consideration - no matter how outrageous. As long as sex-ed is chock full of mandated misinformation. As long as Bush publicly considers that the earth is a mere 6,000 years old. As long as he gives his support to scientific "balance." As long as long as health professionals feel safe to deny a prescription based on theocratic principles.

......... and as long as Bush throws his ever diminishing weight behind a constitutional amendment to ban same sex marriage.

These nutbars are what it takes for them to win an election.

So here we are. Five months from an election, and the bones are getting tossed out fast and furious to the nutbars who grudgingly lap them up. Grudgingly, because nobody else are so stupid as to rely on these freaks to get elected. And grudgingly, because while everyone knows it, nobody is exactly that happy about it.

It's a symbiotic nightmare. At this point, it becomes hard to distinguish the hosts from the parasites.

Republicans can't win an election without them, and their crazed agenda wouldn't even get boosted to anything close to a national debate without their grudging help.



Where to begin?

OK first things first......both sides pander to their base. Which in case you haven't noticed are nutjobs. (you probably only notice the right side because guess what? You are a pefect example of the left base)

Second...not everyone who thinks marriage is between a man and a woman only are religious.

Third....for a so called "lame duck" he sure is getting a lot done. Even with low poll numbers he can still run the country better than previous presidents who only cared about polls.

Finally....I don't really want an amendment but with judges changing laws at a whim it may be the only way to stop them. We have to draw a line in the sand some where and this is as good as a place as any.
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Offline Yeager

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« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2006, 08:17:50 AM »
Hang, that was one of the more clever things ever said on this board.
====
I would give it a 4.5 outta 10. Hang has set the bar very high for himself and here he misses it by a rather wide margin.
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Offline Mighty1

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« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2006, 08:23:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ghosth
Sure took the heat off the war on  terrorists, iran,troops in  irag
and everything else Bush didn't want to talk about didn't it.

Its like a kneejerk reaction. Slow news week coming, thing the press is going to gangbang you again? Have a rep senator try to sneak something by the senate ending any possiblilty of gay marrage.

Hey presto!


Fact remains the Federal Govt has NO right to be in this issue at all.
Its not a federal issue.


This was on the books for months to debate so this was not something new. This is more than showing the country where each politician stands. This is to remind the base on both sides that no matter who is in charge some issues will have to be (not)/supported by all. Which means every vote is important.

As I said before I am against an amendment but what other choice do you have when 1 judge can overturn what 70+% of a state voted for/against?
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Offline lazs2

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Gay marriage - why?
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2006, 08:25:46 AM »
Mighty....Yep... I am not religious and I believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman.   I think that it is in the best interest of a country to reward behavior that is good for a country and if you marginalize marriage then you are making things worse.  

Nash is very good at finding everything wrong with the only party that can allways beat the party he wants in power... it is a shell game as you have observed.... the nasty ugly shell that is the whacko left is what he is trying to distract you from..

The lefty whack jobs have no platform that any sane person would support so they pretty much are stuck with tearing down the other guy...  You will never see nash explain what he wants to happen... only how bad the other guy is... no solutions from him because he knows his solutions are even eaisier to mock than the ones he is tearing down..

sooo, in that respect mighty... you are wrong... he knows perfectly well that he supports and panders to the far left whack jobs... he is just dishonest about how he presents it.  

This is of course futile since everyone with any sense who has read these boards knows exactly how far left he is and what to expect from him...

People who find themselves agreeing with even the most simple thing he says are horrified and re-examine.

lazs

Offline lukster

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« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2006, 08:26:23 AM »
If no one cares about it then it won't help the republican party much. Personally I think he's trying to distract attention from his limp wristed efforts to regain control of immigration.

Offline eagl

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« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2006, 08:41:02 AM »
Actually, the fed govt DOES have a legitimate place in any lawmaking regarding marriage, for gays or not.  Why?  Because existing federal laws have different rules and status for people based on their marital status, as defined by both state and federal laws.

Taxes, are one example.  Inheritance and property rights are others.

Here are two big example the gay marriage rights activists will (and should) use... the non-hype ones anyhow.

2 couples.  Both have an adopted child, and a house with a house payment.  Both work, so they have child care and retirement savings to consider.  One couple is male/female, the other is male/male.

First issue - taxes.  The traditional family gets numerous cash benefits designed to aid the family and children.  Joint tax returns, both wage earners benefit from lower tax brackets, retirement deductions, mortgage interest deductions, and child credits.  The gay couple, even if they both have the exact same incomes and expenses as the traditional couple, may pay more federal income tax because they are not considered "married".  This makes an easy case against the federal government for sexual discrimination.

Second issue - death.  

For the traditional family, if one family member dies, the other will (in most states) receive both custody of the child and rights to all "joint" property.  After a court hearing, most widows/widowers will also receive rights to all "non-joint" property that is not otherwise given to another person in a will (such as bank accounts held since before getting married).

For the gay couple, there are numerous problems that have already occurred in "real life" and which still occur.  First, if the one with his name on the house title dies, there is a good chance that the surviving partner will not receive ANY rights to the home and will in fact be evicted while the state determines who gets custody (usually extended "birth" family).  The same problem goes for other property, such as investments, vehicles, and bank accounts.  Second, is the issue of child custody.  Not only may the surviving member lose their house, custody of the child may not pass to the surviving member regardless of who owns the house.  Again, this has actually happened and still happens.

Here's the kicker - most (all?) states have "common law" marriage rules that mean a couple who has never been formally "married" to be in fact married after simply living together for a number of years, especially if they show some sort of marital intent such as having kids or owning joint property.  But now there is a push to outlaw gay marriage to the point where an unmarried male/female couple will have more legal rights than a gay couple holding a marriage certificate from one of the few states that gives them out.

That's F**ed up IMHO.  If the govt is going to set rules designed to provide family stability and ensure consistent legal application of property and custody of minors, then those rules need to apply to EVERYONE who could possibly be subject to those situations.

Simply put:

It's unfair to provide cash benefits to "married" couples including common law couples, and deny them to gay partners who have established a legitimate intent to establish a household together.  Many of those tax laws are intended to benefit children, and it is fairly common for same-sex couples to have custody of a child either through adoption or from a previous marriage or non-marital relationship.

It's unfair to deny the right of survivorship to same-sex partners who have established a household or lifelong partnership, when those rights are usually given to traditional couples who were never formally married but fall under common law marriage rules.  This form of discrimination not only directly impacts any children in the family, but it also disrupts the orderly conduct of society and the rule of law, when the laws are applied purely based on if the survivor was of the same or different sex as the deceased.


My solution (of course I have a solution) is to create a new federal definition of legal domestic partnership that applies to ANY type of "marriage" relationship, and give people who gain this new partnership status the exact same privledges, rights, and benefits that "married" couples have, without exception.

Yes there would be problems to be overcome (since bigamy is illegal, what about group "partnerships" with more than one couple?) but I think the federal govt needs to do something to address what are IMHO clear legal and social injustices being carried out, without making it worse by narrowing the definition of marriage while excluding other partnerships from the legal protections and financial benefits that traditional married couples have.

It's funny/sad how the same old arguments used to discriminate against blacks are now being used to discriminate against gay couples...  If they don't want it to be called marriage, fine.  Abolish the whole legal concept of marriage and replace it with a legal definition of "domestic partner" if necessary, but the raw and unconstitutional discrimination against couples based purely on sex needs to be addressed at BOTH the state and federal level.
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Offline Gunslinger

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Gay marriage - why?
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2006, 08:43:13 AM »
I have to (shudder) agree with Nash (I feel dirty) and others that hte timing of this stinks.  My attention span is rather short but did they even pass any type of immigration reform before moving on to this?

 
Quote
This month's offensive by President Bush and his allies in Congress against gay marriage and flag burning proves one thing: The Republican Party thinks its base of social conservatives is a nest of dummies who have no memories and respond like bulls whenever red flags are waved in their faces.
The people who should be angry this week are not liberals or gays or lesbians, but the president's most loyal supporters. After using the gay-marriage issue shamelessly in the 2004 campaign, Bush and Republican leaders left opponents of gay marriage out in the cold as they concentrated on the party's real priorities: privatizing Social Security and cutting taxes on rich people.

When Bush was at his position of maximum strength after the 2004 election, did he use his political energy on behalf of a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage? Not at all. In an interview with The Post on Jan. 14, 2005, he dismissed the question, arguing that since many senators felt that the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) was already an effective bar to the spread of gay marital unions, there was no point in fighting for a constitutional change.

"Senators have made it clear that so long as DOMA is deemed constitutional, nothing will happen," Bush said then. "I'd take their admonition seriously."
Spot on

Offline lukster

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Gay marriage - why?
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2006, 08:51:38 AM »
There's an obvious and legitimate reason a male/female couple should get tax breaks. Traditionally, except for the last 50 years or so, the female bears children and stays home nurturing her offspring while the male brings home the bacon. Typically, this child bearing began soon after marriage. The value of this to society and humanity is obvious to anyone with any sense. Why should a male/male couple derive this same tax break?

Offline eagl

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« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2006, 08:56:16 AM »
None of the above post should be taken to mean ANY level of agreement with Nash or "his kind"...  :D

Seriously,  it's a simple analysis of hard and fast facts concerning the very real consequences of the current legal benefits, privleges, and rights given to "married" couples and denied to gay "partners".  The constitution does not define marriage, but it does state that there must not be any discrimination in the law based on race, sex, or creed.  Creating a further constitutional amendment outlining the one special case were it IS ok to discriminate on the basis of sex is a horrible thought as it opens the door to other special cases.

What's next...  An amendment stating that because a group of whackos drove some planes into some buildings, it's ok to discriminate against Muslims?  What if the president says that it's only a single religion that's going to be discriminated against, so it's all ok?  What about a law that says because Mexicans aren't "from here" and most of our illegal immigrants are from Mexico, it's ok to discriminate against anyone who looks Mexican?  

I mean, it's not as if traditional AMERICANS are being discriminated against and the constitution didn't REALLY mean "ALL" people are created equal and that the laws should apply equally to "ALL" people?  It's ok to write a few amendments and laws that discriminate in certain cases, because it's only a few people, right?  I mean, "ALL" is a lot bigger now than it was back then...

The arguments are bogus, and the constitutional conflict is pretty clear IMHO.  Either the constitution guarantees equal protections, benefits, and rights under our laws, or it doesn't.  I say it does, and the laws need to reflect that.
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2006, 08:57:25 AM »
an example would be capital gains on sales of homes... 250k exemption for singles and 500k for married.

But... eagl... I dissagree that this is wrong... I say this as a single person.

It is not discrimination...  everyone including me and gay and child molesters has a right to marry... the exact same right.   they just can't marry a goat or anoter same sex partner or a child.

Married couples have fought and won these rights and/or have been given them by society that thought they were a good thing to give married (between man and woman) couple to strengthen and reward the behaviour..

Now... I have no problem with your idea of a contract for other relationships while keeping marriage a contract betweeen man and woman and all the rights that entails..

As for a domestic relationship between gays or goats or whatever... they make the contract within the boundry of the law.

That is the simple part... if they want additional privliges... then they need to go through the same process that married people went through... they shouldn't be able to ride the coattails of the people who have done the work..

Why?   because it is a betrayal... the people allowed these privliges on the pretense that they were for married people of the opposssite sex..

The laws and exceptions were made on that basis...you can't change the basic law with no input from the people who gave those rights under the understanding that it was strengthening (rewarding) the relationship between a man and a woman.

the way it should work is that a new kind of relationship...call it domestic partner should be formed and defined... it would have no rights save those of any contract.

Any additional rights it got would have to go through the process that married people did... You want a capital gains advantage for domestic partners?  fine... put that up for legeslation or add it to the next one for married couples.

Do you see what I mean?  What the gay marriage people are trying to do is co-opt the will of the people who gave a lot of varried rights to a group that they approved of.   They don't want to put it up for everyone to decide like the real married couples had to.

lazs