Author Topic: 'Knock Knock"  (Read 1802 times)

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #60 on: June 16, 2006, 12:49:19 PM »
Its actually a good ruling when you consider it thoughtfully.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/06/15/scotus.search/index.html
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Offline Maverick

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« Reply #61 on: June 16, 2006, 01:36:26 PM »
Nash,

Both articles weree cited in my reply because you are focused on the "no knock ruling" as termed by the press. In each of those caes there was no knock, both went to the Supreme Court and were heard in the current term. Does that clear it up for you? You also did not specify the particular case in your troll. I tried to clear it up, if that offends you, tough. I wanted to insure I was discussing the pertinant case.

In this case we still do not even have the extract of the ruling so it is difficult to determine the scope of the impact as there is no specific judgement to read. All we have is some discussion by reporters in the article and some, but not complete quotes. Don't rush to judgement on the impact just yet.

Lets look at the case in question.

The error cited by the defendants attorney was one of no knock and less than 15 seconds at the door. There is no finding that there was no announcement of presence and intent to enter by the Police. There also was no disagreement on the presence of a search warrant.

There has been no citing of the definition of a "reasonable time" to wait in this case. Absent that, it's hard to argue what the court has determined is "reasonable". The article lists one statement that the court has ruled in the past that a period of 15 to 20 seconds is required but no case was cited for confirmation or if that ruling was not just specific to the case in which it was made.

What has been cited in this particular case is that the Court allowed evidence in this case to be used for probitive purposes even though the knock and time period were not used. There was definately an announcement however.

Another statement was made that the legislature is certainly able to make a law (as opposed to a court ruling having the effect of law) specifying the procedures to be followed regarding serving a warrant. I think this is a good idea as it may be able to clearly codify the procedure rather than have ambiguous terms like "reasonable period of time".

What has been stated in the article is justification for the lack of a lengthy time period which would allow the defendant time to either dispose of evidence or prepare to use violence in resisting the serving of the warrant. There is no "right" to use force or violence to resist the serving of a warrant.

This is another of those areas that could be ambiguous as circumstances dictate what is reasonable at one time may not be at another. If you have an armed and dangerous suspect engaged in criminal activity involving objects that are easy to dispose of (ie drugs) or are extremely hazardous (explosives, chemicals or drug labs) the reasonableness of a lengthy wait is less easy to see. On the other hand if you are executing a warrant on a to date non violent fraud suspect and looking for records, a longer time is not unreasonable. It's tough to determine one standard that will apply to all situations and may well be impossible.

In any case I did not see anything that indicated there was no longer any requirement to announce prior to or at entry. Just that the time period or that a knock is not the determining factor in exclusion of evidence. Like I said before, wait for the entire ruling to be published before you consider everything has changed.

Nash in answer to your inflamatory question: No it is not legal to shoot a cop serving a warrant.

As has already been mentioned there is a lot of shouting "Police - Search Warant" at the moment of and after entry. Ear plugs do not render a person deaf as anyone who has worn them at a firearms range can attest to. Using that arguement is specious and reaching at best. Shouts are easily heard through them.

It is encumbant on the homeowner to make sure of his / her target before firing in all cases and that does not change in the case of a warrant being served. If you hear shouting "Police - search warrant" firing at those folks will likely end up in receiving heavy return fire from armored and better armed Officers.

Having been on a couple entries as the lead Officer through the door it is rather important to know that every Officer is keenly desious to insure there is NO confusion as to their identity as Officers and there is no shooting or violence if at all possible. Fortunately it is no longer commonly necessary to just get a regular uniformed Officer to enter the door first. Most departments of any size use a swat team with good equipment to make the entry. It is not a fun thing to do.
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Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #62 on: June 16, 2006, 02:14:58 PM »
You are so wasting your time Mav, nash will find a way to ignore the facts as usual.

Offline FUNKED1

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« Reply #63 on: June 16, 2006, 02:23:02 PM »
It's all OK because law enforcement officers never make mistakes and never have unlawful intentions.

Offline Curval

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« Reply #64 on: June 16, 2006, 02:32:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GtoRA2
If they still have to get a warrant then the only chage is going from:

Police we have a warrant and you door gets busted in to.

You door gets busted in and they show you the warrant.




or...your door gets busted in and you grab your trusty revolver beside the bedside and shoot the cop before he manages to show you the warrent...which IS Nash's point.
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #65 on: June 16, 2006, 02:42:43 PM »
mav... how dare you give the facts in the ruling..

freaking nash went bottle rocket on me and made about a half dozen assumtions on how I think... every one of em wrong.

They were talking about warrant searches.  If they got a warrant then there is nothing you can do.   They have the right to enter....  waiting 15 seconds was never the law of the land.  

My point was that if there is a violent criminal then they need to get in and serve the warrant.  My point was that it is the warrant that needs to be addressed not how many seconds one way or the other  it takes to break in and serve it.

sandie seems to think that helmet laws are the same as warrant searches... in the one case... with helmets and seatbelts... they are protecting you from yourself... in the case of warrants they are protecting the populace by supposedly aprehending a dangerous criminal who may do more harm or get away by destroying evidense.... I can't believe that you do not see the difference.

I repeat tho... Only violent criminals should have warrants issued against their residence.

I have never been a fan of the ease to which warrants are issued against citizens with no criminal background or even no violent background.

Waco could have been avoided for instance by simply arresting Koresh while he left the house to go to the hardware store.


lazs

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #66 on: June 16, 2006, 02:45:22 PM »
Yep Laz, and Koresh could simply have just come out and told his folks to stand down.

Mistakes on both sides there and both sides could have and should have done things differently. I agree that simply taking him as he went into town would have been SO much easier, it just would have taken some time. So freaking stupid on both sides.
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #67 on: June 16, 2006, 02:56:45 PM »
mav... I agree that mistakes were made on both sides but a lot of evidence and Koresh himself all point to the ATF firing at them first when koresh was at the door and unarmed.   This may or may not be true... I believe it is.

But..  At this point koresh was a non violent person accused of nothing worse than gun regestration failures.... he had threatened no one and had in fact allowed law enforcement personel on his property and in his house many times.

Getting a whole crapload of black clad ninjas in masks to surround and attack a persons home for no other reason than some paperwork violations is exactly the kind of thing that is wrong with the whole warrant process.

especially when the local sheriff had the run of the place.

My point is that when you call out the ninjas... it better be some real bad hombres that you are going after...  some people who have been or are about to be an immediate threat to everyone.   Not some citizen with an ounce of coke or a recently banned 30 round mag or some dummy grenade paperweights.

lazs

Offline Nifty

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« Reply #68 on: June 16, 2006, 03:25:55 PM »
So Nash, what you're saying is, you would like the evidence in the particular search and seizure to be inadmissable in the trial? (yeah, I know the actual seizure happened in 1998 or something)

Oops, sorry cops.  You didn't knock.  All that incriminating evidence you found isn't allowed into the trial.  Sorry DA, looks like you don't have a case now.

Hmm, doesn't sound like a scenario I would like.  Also, just because the evidence will still be admissible doesn't mean that the cops will stop knocking altogether in every situation.

However, I do see the other side of it.  We give away our freedoms and rights little by little until eventually, we have no freedom and rights.
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Offline Nash

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« Reply #69 on: June 16, 2006, 04:19:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nifty
So Nash, what you're saying is, you would like the evidence in the particular search and seizure to be inadmissable in the trial? (yeah, I know the actual seizure happened in 1998 or something)

Oops, sorry cops.  You didn't knock.  All that incriminating evidence you found isn't allowed into the trial.  Sorry DA, looks like you don't have a case now.


That's exactly how it should be. There is a distinction between a search without a vaild warrant, and a warranted search badly executed. There have always been situations where evidence is discovered through error. The Supreme Court ruling now invites it, with the understanding now that there are no drawbacks to executing a bad search.

It really is that simple.

Offline lukster

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« Reply #70 on: June 16, 2006, 04:26:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
That's exactly how it should be. There is a distinction between a search without a vaild warrant, and a warranted search badly executed. There have always been situations where evidence is discovered through error. The Supreme Court ruling now invites it, with the understanding now that there are no drawbacks to executing a bad search.

It really is that simple.


No drawbacks? Of course there are. Discipline the police but don't let the criminal off the hook.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #71 on: June 16, 2006, 04:28:21 PM »
Who disciplines the police?

Offline lukster

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« Reply #72 on: June 16, 2006, 04:30:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
Who disciplines the police?


At what level? Certainly they discipline themselves and when needed are disciplined from outside their ranks.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #73 on: June 16, 2006, 04:35:45 PM »
"and when needed are disciplined from outside their ranks"

If by "outside their ranks" you mean by the courts, then cross that one off your list of potential discipliners when it comes to this particular brand of bad search.

So you're left with the police disciplining themselves, with no real motive or imperative to do even that.

Offline lukster

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« Reply #74 on: June 16, 2006, 04:45:33 PM »
I don't mean the courts though they may come into it when there has been criminal activity. I'm talking about the mayor or other government official.


Many of the top ranked police offices are elected positions, when appointed there is always an elected offical in charge of that office. That's how it is throughout the US anyhow.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2006, 04:58:39 PM by lukster »