Author Topic: Atomic Bomb dropped on Hiroshima  (Read 4112 times)

Offline lukster

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2581
Atomic Bomb dropped on Hiroshima
« Reply #75 on: August 07, 2006, 10:37:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rolex
The generals and admirals were making a point, not me. Here's some friendly advice you might want to put on a 3x5 card and think about, lukster:

If you disagree with someone, or would like to get some information from them, starting out with a smarmy dig about their credibility might not be the most effective technique.


You're credibilty took a hit so far as I'm concerned in a previous thread when you claimed or implied that the "students" who invaded the US embassy in Iran did so to force the US to release their money. Could have been an honest mistake, I'm not calling you a liar or anything, just asking for your source. Or do you have their statements memorized and posted that from your memory?

Offline bj229r

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6728
Atomic Bomb dropped on Hiroshima
« Reply #76 on: August 07, 2006, 11:01:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rolex
If you disagree with someone, or would like to get some information from them, starting out with a smarmy dig about their credibility might not be the most effective technique.


How about this: When you put up purported facts or quotes, plunk the source link beside them. In several responses, you still have failed to do this.  What your delicate sensibilities tell you about someone's demeanor is more suited to a couple of women carping at each others' hairdos:)
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers

http://www.flamewarriors.net/forum/

Offline Shuckins

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3412
Atomic Bomb dropped on Hiroshima
« Reply #77 on: August 07, 2006, 11:27:09 AM »
Operation Downfall was to take place in two parts:  Operations Olympic and Coronet.

The figures cited of 550,000 American troops involved in the invasion are for the initial landing only.

Thirty six combat divisions in all would be involved.  Operation Downfall called for using the entire Marine Corps, the entire Pacific Navy, elements of the 7th Army Air Force, the 8th Air Force, the 10th Air Force, and the American Far Eastern Air Force.  More than 1.5 million combat soldiers, with 3 million more in support or more than 40 percent of all servicement still in uniform in 1945 - would be directly involved in the two amphibious assaults.

Admiral William Leahy estimated that there would be more than 250,000 Americans killed or wounded on Kyushu alone.  General Charles Willoughby, chief of intelligence for General douglas MacArthur, the Supreme Commander of the Southwest Pacific, estimated American casualties from the entire operation would be one million men by the fall of 1946.  Willoughby's own intelligence staff considered this to be a conservative estimate.

While a naval blockade and strategic bombing of Japan was considered to be useful, MacArthur, for instance, did not believe a blockade would bring about an unconditional surrender.   The advocates for invasion agreed that while a naval blockade chokes, it does not kill, and though strategic bombing might destroy cities, it leaves whole armies intact.

A 3,000 ship fleet, under Admiral Raymond Spruance would carry the invasion troops.  Aircraft from 66 aircraft carriers would bomb, rocket and straf enemy defenses, gun emplacements and troop concentrations along the beaches.

The preliminary invasion would begin October 27 when the series of small islands west and southwest of Kyushu.

If all went well with Olympic, Coronet would be launched March 1, 1946.  Coronet would be twice the size of Olympic, with as many as 28 American divisions landing on Honshu.

Latter day critics of the decision to drop the atomic bomb often state that the Japanese were already finished and would have shortly surrendered, no longer having the strength or will to resist.

The following facts strongly refute that claim.

Captured japanese documents and post war interrogation of Japanese military leaders disclose that information concerning the number of Japanese planes available for the defense of the home islands was dangerously in error.

During the sea battle at Okinawa alone, Japanese kamikaze aircraft sank 32 Allied ships and damaged more than 400 others.  But during the summer of 1945, American top brass concluded that the Japanese had spent their air force since American bombers and fighers daily flew unmolested over Japan.

What themilitary leaders did not know was that by the end of July the Japanese had been saving all aircraft, fuel and pilots in reserve, and had been feverishly building new planes for the decisive battle for their homeland.

Allied intelligence had established the Japanese had no more than 2,500 aircraft of which they guessed that 300 would be deployed in suicide attacks.  

In August 1945, however, unknown to Allied intelligence, the japanese still had 5,651 army and 7,074 navy aircraft, for a total of 12, 725 planes of all types.  Newer and more effective models of the Okka were also being developed.

When the invasion became imminent, Ketsu-Go called for a fourfold aerial plan of attack to destroy up to 800 Allied ships.  

While Allied ships were approaching Japan, but still in the open seas, an initial force of 2,000 fighters were to fight to the death to control the skies over Kyushu.  A second force of 330 navy combat pilots were to attack the main body of the task force to keep it from using its fire support and air cover to protect the troop carrying transports.  While these two forces were engaged, a third force of 825 suicide planes were to hit the American transports.

As the invasion convoys approached their anchorages, another 2,000 suicide planes were to be launched in waves of 200 to 300, to used in hour-by-hour attacks.

By mid-morning of the first day of the invasion, most of the American land-based aircraft would be forced to return to their bases, leaving hte defense against the suicide planes to the carrier pilots and the shipboard gunners.

Carrier pilots crippled by fatigue would have to land time and time again to rearm and refuel.  Guns would malfunction from the heat of continuous firing and ammunition would become scarce.  Gun crews would be exhausted by nightfall, but still the waves of kamikazes would continue.   With the fleet hovering off the beaches, all remaining Japanese aircraft would be committed to nonstop suicide attacks, which the Japanese hoped could be sustained for 10 days.  The Japanese planned to coordinate their air strikes with attacks from the 40 remaining submarines from the Imperial Navy - some armed with Long Lance torpedoes with a range of 20 miles - when the invasion fleet was 180 miles off Kyushu.

Once offshore, the invasion fleet would be forced to defend not only against the attacks from the air but would also be confronted with suicide attacks from the sea.  Japan had established a suicide naval attack unit of midget submarines, human torpedoes and exploding motorboats.

If the invasion was not shattered at sea by these tactics, the landing would be opposed by elite division of the Japanese Army which, for the first time since 1942, would enjoy a 3 to 2 and even larger superiority in numbers.

Backed by an intricate system of defenses, including caves stocked with supplies, fuel, and ammunition, as well as pillboxes and trenches, the Japanese Army would have fought almost literally to the last man.

In addition, intelligence studies estimated that approximately 28 million civilians had received training in hand-to-hand combat and would have fought as irregulars and guerillas behind the lines to help contain a breakthrough.

In the early hours of the invasion, American casualties were estimated to run about 1000 an hour.

These facts hardly indicate that the Japanese were "finished."

Offline outbreak

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 422
Atomic Bomb dropped on Hiroshima
« Reply #78 on: August 07, 2006, 11:28:51 AM »
<<<---- Not afraid of the Atom Bomb or Atomic Bomb---->>>

What im afraid of is a Thermo-Nuclear Bomb, It will kill anything in its path no matter what with the Heat that it puts off, Atleast people survived the Atomic Bombs, No one unless VERY VERY VERY well protected would withstand the Blast of a Thermo Nuclear Bomb which is used by almost all countrys that got nukies now.


1st Sign of a Nuke war and im going to bend over and kiss my arse good bye, If i have time before it hits me. :noid

Offline Rolex

  • AH Training Corps
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3285
Atomic Bomb dropped on Hiroshima
« Reply #79 on: August 07, 2006, 11:36:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
You're credibilty took a hit so far as I'm concerned in a previous thread when you claimed or implied that the "students" who invaded the US embassy in Iran did so to force the US to release their money. Could have been an honest mistake, I'm not calling you a liar or anything, just asking for your source. Or do you have their statements memorized and posted that from your memory?


The US refused to return billions of dollars the shah had placed in US banks against future orders of military material after the new government cancelled the order after his removal. It was one of the demands, in addition to the return of the shah, the primary demand.

That is common knowledge to anyone having a even a rudimentary understanding of the US Embassy hostage situation. You can search to confirm it. Knock yourself out. It should take you only a few minutes and I am absolved of any accusations of leading you on.

Didn't you watch the news? It was the lead story every single night for 444 days.

Day 1 of the hostage crisis in Iran

Day 2 of the hostage crisis in Iran

Day 3 of the hostage site in Iran

...

You want me to find a link to prove the Earth revolves around the Sun, or are you okay with that one?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2006, 11:40:50 AM by Rolex »

Offline lukster

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2581
Atomic Bomb dropped on Hiroshima
« Reply #80 on: August 07, 2006, 11:36:17 AM »
I'll be open with you Rolex. I've seen the quotes you posted before and I don't really doubt their legitimacy. I'm more interested in seeing where you pulled them from. I don't agree with your conclusions or the site from which I suspect you pulled those quotes.

Offline Masherbrum

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22408
Atomic Bomb dropped on Hiroshima
« Reply #81 on: August 07, 2006, 11:38:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Operation Downfall was to take place in two parts:  Operations Olympic and Coronet.

The figures cited of 550,000 American troops involved in the invasion are for the initial landing only.


Now this will be the first response to the "Operation Downfall" theorists on the BBS.  

Good post Shuckins, maybe folks will realize the depth and magnitude of the "planned Invasion of Japan".
-=Most Wanted=-

FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC

Offline lukster

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2581
Atomic Bomb dropped on Hiroshima
« Reply #82 on: August 07, 2006, 11:39:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rolex
The US refused to return billions of dollars the shah had placed in US banks against future orders of military material after the new government cancelled the order after his removal. It was one of the demands, in addition to the return of the shah, the primary demand.

That is common knowledge to anyone having a even a rudimentary understanding of the US Embassy hostage situation. You can search to confirm it. Knock yourself out. It should take you only a few minutes and I am absolved of any accusations of leading you on.

You want me to find a link to prove the Earth revolves around the Sun, or are you okay with that one?


The money was not placed on hold until affter the embassy was invaded. I didn't dig up your old post yet but I got the distinct impression you were using this information to somehow justify this invasion. If you calim I'm wrong I'll dig it up and apologize if it's clear that was not your intent.

Offline Rolex

  • AH Training Corps
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3285
Atomic Bomb dropped on Hiroshima
« Reply #83 on: August 07, 2006, 11:43:42 AM »
Naw, the freeze on Iranian assets was after the embassy takeover. $10 billion was not returned when the order was cancelled before the takeover. It is not justifying an invasion, it is understanding what the issues were. You can't negotiate anything without understanding what the other guy wants. Get it?

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
Atomic Bomb dropped on Hiroshima
« Reply #84 on: August 07, 2006, 11:46:13 AM »
Ehm, Rolex:
"And Angus, 550,000 men was the inital plan, with another 200,000 being transferred from Europe later. You can find it easily."
Shuckins has given the data. I had this anyway:

"Operation Olympic, the invasion of Kyushu, was to begin on "X-Day", which was scheduled for November 1, 1945. The combined Allied naval armada would have been the largest ever assembled, including forty-two aircraft carriers, twenty-four battleships, and four hundred destroyers and destroyer escorts. Fourteen U.S. divisions were scheduled to take part in the initial landings."
And Coronet:
"Coronet
Operation Coronet, the invasion of Honshu at the Tokyo Plain south of the capital, was to begin on "Y-Day", which was scheduled for March 1, 1946. Coronet would have been the largest amphibious operation of all time, with 25 divisions (including the floating reserve) earmarked for the initial operations. U.S. First Army would have invaded at Kujukuri Beach, on the Boso Peninsula, while U.S. Eighth Army invaded at Hiratsuka, on Sagami Bay. Both armies would then drive north and inland, meeting at Tokyo."

You're talking big numbers here, and the data to build up an idea of the casualties comes from IWO (some 30.000 DEAD Japanese and USA) as well as Okinawa with lots more, - those are yet in size merely the start of the Japanese home islands.
About Okinawa:
"Many military historians believe that Okinawa led directly to American use of the atomic bomb, on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. A prominent holder of this view is Victor Davis Hanson, who states it explicitly in his book Ripples of Battle. The theory goes: because the Japanese on Okinawa, including native Okinawans, were so fierce in their defense (even when cut off, and without supplies), and because casualties were so appalling, many American strategists looked for an alternative means to subdue mainland Japan, other than a direct invasion. This means presented itself, with the advent of atomic bombs, which worked admirably in convincing the Japanese to sue for peace, without American casualties. Ironically, the American conventional fire-bombing of major Japanese cities (which had been going on for months before Okinawa) was far more effective at killing civilians than the atomic bombs and, had the Americans simply continued, or expanded this, the Japanese would likely have surrendered anyway. Nevertheless, the bombs were a powerful symbolic display of American power, and the Japanese capitulated, obviating the need for an invasion of the home islands"
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Shuckins

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3412
Atomic Bomb dropped on Hiroshima
« Reply #85 on: August 07, 2006, 11:52:38 AM »
Masherbrun,

Thanks.  My dad was a seabee whose unit was in Okinawa.

His unit was C.B.M.U. 633 and arrived at Okinawa aboard the transport ship USS Noble on August 13, 1945.  They spent two days on board before disembarking.

During the night, before they disembarked, Japanese aircraft carried out raids on the ships anchored in Buckner Bay.  One placed a torpedo into the ship 500 yards inboard of dad's transport, killing 20 offiders and men.  That ship was the USS Pennsylvania.

The second night, a kamikaze smashed into the transport 500 yards outboard of his ship.

The next day, the war ended.  Even at this late a date, the Japanese were still able to strike at American forces at this great a distance from Japan.

My dad's unit was scheduled to take part in the invasion of Japan...maybe not in the initial landings, but certainly in those that followed.

Every man in his unit breathed a collective sigh of relief when news came that the bomb had been dropped and the war had ended.

Regards, Shuckins

Offline Masherbrum

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22408
Atomic Bomb dropped on Hiroshima
« Reply #86 on: August 07, 2006, 11:57:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Masherbrun,

Thanks.  My dad was a seabee whose unit was in Okinawa.

His unit was C.B.M.U. 633 and arrived at Okinawa aboard the transport ship USS Noble on August 13, 1945.  They spent two days on board before disembarking.

During the night, before they disembarked, Japanese aircraft carried out raids on the ships anchored in Buckner Bay.  One placed a torpedo into the ship 500 yards inboard of dad's transport, killing 20 offiders and men.  That ship was the USS Pennsylvania.

The second night, a kamikaze smashed into the transport 500 yards outboard of his ship.

The next day, the war ended.  Even at this late a date, the Japanese were still able to strike at American forces at this great a distance from Japan.

My dad's unit was scheduled to take part in the invasion of Japan...maybe not in the initial landings, but certainly in those that followed.

Every man in his unit breathed a collective sigh of relief when news came that the bomb had been dropped and the war had ended.

Regards, Shuckins


You are VERY WELCOME.   My grandfather was USMC (43-46) and did NOT want to go into Yokohama Bay.   He said this often, and this was someone that turned down a Purple Heart on Guam carrying his dead buddy ashore under fire.  

The figures would have been catastrophic in proportion.
-=Most Wanted=-

FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
Atomic Bomb dropped on Hiroshima
« Reply #87 on: August 07, 2006, 12:02:01 PM »
A wee more of Okinawa:
"Battle of Okinawa
Okinawa was the largest amphibious invasion of the Pacific campaign and the last major campaign of the Pacific War. More ships were used, more troops put ashore, more supplies transported, more bombs dropped, more naval guns fired against shore targets than any other operation in the Pacific. More people died during the Battle of Okinawa than all those killed during the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Casualties totaled more than 38,000 Americans wounded and 12,000 killed or missing, more than 107,000 Japanese and Okinawan conscripts killed, and perhaps 100,000 Okinawan civilians who perished in the battle.

The battle of Okinawa proved to be the bloodiest battle of the Pacific War. Thirty-four allied ships and craft of all types had been sunk, mostly by kamikazes, and 368 ships and craft damaged. The fleet had lost 763 aircraft. Total American casualties in the operation numbered over 12,000 killed [including nearly 5,000 Navy dead and almost 8,000 Marine and Army dead] and 36,000 wounded. Navy casualties were tremendous, with a ratio of one killed for one wounded as compared to a one to five ratio for the Marine Corps. Combat stress also caused large numbers of psychiatric casualties, a terrible hemorrhage of front-line strength. There were more than 26,000 non-battle casualties. In the battle of Okinawa, the rate of combat losses due to battle stress, expressed as a percentage of those caused by combat wounds, was 48% [in the Korean War the overall rate was about 20-25%, and in the Yom Kippur War it was about 30%]. American losses at Okinawa were so heavy as to illicite Congressional calls for an investigation into the conduct of the military commanders. Not surprisingly, the cost of this battle, in terms of lives, time, and material, weighed heavily in the decision to use the atomic bomb against Japan just six weeks later. "
From here:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/okinawa-battle.htm
The Japanese side of casualties:
"Japanese human losses were enormous: 107,539 soldiers killed and 23,764 sealed in caves or buried by the Japanese themselves; 10,755 captured or surrendered. The Japanese lost 7,830 aircraft and 16 combat ships. Since many Okinawan residents fled to caves where they subsequently were entombed the precise number of civilian casualties will probably never be known, but the lowest estimate is 42,000 killed. Somewhere between one-tenth and one-fourth of the civilian population perished, though by some estimates the battle of Okinawa killed almost a third of the civilian population. According to US Army records during the planning phase of the operation, the assumption was that Okinawa was home to about 300,000 civilians. At the conclusion of hostilities around 196,000 civilians remained. However, US Army figures for the 82 day campaign showed a total figure of 142,058 civilian casualties, including those killed by artillery fire, air attacks and those who were pressed into service by the Japanese army. "

That sums up with a lot doesn't it? Maybe wanna add up the figures?

Leyte Gulf:
"The US Army suffered over 15,500 casualties, the defending Japanese more than 49,000. The invasion of Luzon followed on 15 December 1944."
(Wikipedia)
That lead to the fall of Manila. There the Japs really went apecheese!!!
"The Manila massacre, February 1945, refers to the atrocities conducted against Filipino civilians in Manila, Philippines by retreating Japanese troops during World War II. Various credible Western and Eastern sources agree that the death toll was at least 100,000 people. The massacre was at its worst in the Battle of Manila."

It was one of the drops who filled the meter, and the meter was big, - Hiroshima gets dwarfed by it:


"The Manila Massacre is one of several major war crimes committed by the Imperial Japanese Army from the annexation of Manchuria in 1931 to the end of World War II in 1945. It was a major event in the Japanese war crimes, where over 15 million Chinese, Korean, Filipino, Indonesian, Burmese, Indochinese civilians, Pacific Islanders, and Allied POWs were killed."
The Manila massacre, February 1945, refers to the atrocities conducted against Filipino civilians in Manila, Philippines by retreating Japanese troops during World War II. Various credible Western and Eastern sources agree that the death toll was at least 100,000 people. The massacre was at its worst in the Battle of Manila.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Masherbrum

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22408
Atomic Bomb dropped on Hiroshima
« Reply #88 on: August 07, 2006, 12:11:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
A wee more of Okinawa


You are telling me and others figures we already know.  My grandpa lived this.  I heard stories every time I saw him.   Anyone who thinks the A-Bomb "killed more than an Invasion of Japan" is full of it.   Do me a favor, ask a Vet who WAS THERE, 100% will say it (The Bombs) saved more lives.
-=Most Wanted=-

FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC

Offline Shuckins

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3412
Atomic Bomb dropped on Hiroshima
« Reply #89 on: August 07, 2006, 12:15:54 PM »
I once read an excellent book entitled "Typhoon of Steel:  The Campaign for Okinawa."  I can't remember the name of the author however.

Excellent battle history of that event, if anyone is interested enough to look it up.