Rolling Scissors (Training Animation)

[Badboy]

Originally posted by Schutt
Nice explanations,
however it kind of confused me, now i need help.

What is about varying the diameter of the barrel, can i widen that to make the other guy "overshoot" with his scissors?

Yes, but not directly, you do it in practice with your stick and rudder in order to keep your lift vector in lag while maintaining your best sustained turn rate.

Can i try to cut the corener by pulling a ailoron roll when on the top part and staying there while the other guy does his scissors?

Yes, particularly if your opponent is flying the scissors badly, and gives you enough turning room to convert directly onto his six. That is most likely to happen while you are at the top of your roll, and very slow, while he is at the bottom of his.  

I always thought the goal was to be more vertical than the other guy, which looks like a flatter angle to me. Is the goal to be more horizontal (more forward movement in the role)  or is the steep angle a more vertikal role, i. e. trying to be closer to a loop than an ailoron roll?

Yes, “more vertical” is better, if you look at the diagram below, you should see that clearly in the flight path of the victorious red pilot.

Is it possible to "skip one revolution" as in when i have a better climbing plane i try to move my spiral higher than his and finally do a big barel going out above him?

[/B]
Yes, it is possible to avoid the underside of the roll when you get to the top and you are inverted, instead of completing the downside of the roll, just unload G, use ailerons and rudder to enter another upward cycle. However, there is a danger that this will open up enough turning room to allow your opponent to exit his roll and pull directly into you for a shot. The secret is knowing that you have just enough excess power to complete the cycle, when he does not. Aircraft that have very good climb rates or are generally known to have good ability to hang on their prop’s are worth experimenting with.

Are there other exit strategies that can give you an advantage?

Once you are in a scissors, you are generally in until one of you is dead. The best way to win, is to do it better than the other guy. Most exit strategies will either get you killed, or if you manage to extend, will leave you at a distinct disadvantage. If you are desperate to exit the engagement, wait until your opponent begins his upward cycle, and you begin the downward cycle, then dive away. That won’t get you beyond guns range, but it will get you to a distance where gunnery will be more difficult. If you have the slower aircraft, don’t even try it, you are better off trying to win the scissors.  

You should be able to see the relationship between the diameter, helix angle, and the other components of the rolling scissors by studying the diagram I've posted below in terms of the spring analogy.

Hope that helps…

Badboy

[Schutt]

Thank you badboy now i feel better, sorry i have some trouble understanding sometimes .

That is about how i thought it could work but wasnt sure at all about it. My trouble with the explanation comes partly from my bad english, but i think now i understood it.

[Schatzi]

Bumped for DF54 (and others).

[TequilaChaser]

Bumped for Aces High Player: Thing
( and any others wanting help understanding the Rolling Scissors )


hope this helps visualize what we began working on tonight in the TA, see ya up for our next meeting   

[JunkyII]

Where during the fight would you use cross controlling? I like to use opposite rudder at the top of my rolls to hang up there alittle longer, could this be used at the bottom of the roll as well to slow you up enough so he overshoots or do you not suggest it?

[Mace2004]

Let's be clear as to what "cross control" means.  It's when your rudder is opposite your ailerons.  Left stick but right rudder for instance.  It is an uncoordinated maneuver and always results in rapid loss of E because you're essentially trying to fly the plane sideways.  It is a specialized maneuver that should be used sparingly.

It's great for bleeding off excessive speed in a dive or to drop in behind someone co-speed but for a rolling scissors you want to fly efficiently which means coordinated flight, not cross control so, as a general rule, there is no time that true cross controls should be used in a rolling scissors unless, perhaps, you enter the scissors with lots more e than your opponent.  If you're significantly above corner and your opponent is at corner, your scissors (the barrel) can be much larger and he will be able to turn inside of you.  That might be a case where (if you're committed to the scissors) you could use some cross controls to slow down but use it only at the start and only sparingly.  It is very easy to bleed too much E and that's E you won't get back in a rolling scissors.  Personnally, I'd bleed my extra E with G and a more vertical roll rather than use cross controls.  You can use a small amount of opposite rudder to "trim" your nose position to keep your lift vector behind your opponent but you have to be careful and not look at where your nose is pointing but where your aircraft is actually going.  You can fool yourself plus bleed e for no gain.

One maneuver that is useful in a rolling scissors though is the rudder roll.  Once you've gained good position advantage (i.e., your opponent has moved out in front but not sufficient for a gun shot) you can transition the position advantage to an angular advantage.  

As you approach the top of your scissors, you see that you've got good position but your nose is pointing 45 degrees away from your opponent.  If you continue the scissors, your nose will come down and this will continue until you "catch up" to your opponent (remember, you're both flying similar flight paths).  Just before you come to the top, and before your nose starts down do a rudder roll toward your opponent (this will be in the same direction as the scissors you're already using, it is not "cross controlled).  If you're rolling left, then use lots of left rudder.

The rudder roll will stop your nose from dropping too much and yaw it toward your opponent.  When done correctly you will then be able to cut across the circle as your opponent comes up and you should get a good planform shot or even be able to put yourself directly behind him.   If you're going to try this, you MUST make sure you have a significant position advantage otherwise you'll shoot right out in front of him and you're dead.  

The real advantage to the roll is that it cuts the scissors short and you can get a kill shot quicker than if you just continue the scissors until you reach a guns position.  Not necessary in a one v one but if you're in a multi-bogey environment it's best to end a fight quickly.

[morfiend]

Excellent film, very well done.  If I may, let me add a couple of points regarding "technique", in other words, how do you fly a good rolling scissors and what is your reference point.  In both a rolling and flat scissors the objective is to get or remain behind your adversaries wingline forcing him to fly out in front of you.  In other words, you want slower down-range travel than he has.  The key to doing this is to keep your lift vector behind your adversary, a point called his "extended six".  This is how you ensure that your helix angle is smaller than his.  Most people just roll to put their lift vector directly on the adversary.  This is fine if you're pulling for a shot but in the rolling scissors will equalize your down-range travel and, at best, keep the fight neutral and at worst you will lose any position advantage you have.  By pulling for a position on his extended six you have the best chance of staying behind his wingline and forcing him out front.  Also, as with any vertical moves throttle control is important as too much speed across the bottom will increase your radius and cause you to arc giving your adversary an advantage.

Mace

Wow Mace!!!

I've never had this explained quite so elegant before.I have been doing this exact thing for some time now but I've never been able to explain it properly before.The "extended 6" makes a much beter term to explain this with,using "lag"it is often confussing for newer players and I 've felt I've never gotten that point across before!

   

[Bosco123]

That's is the right way, but I tend to not use cross control, I cut back, which will give you more than enough distance between you, and the other player, to get your shot off.

[pervert]

I don't know if it has a name or not maybe someone here would know? or would be classed as 'rolling scissors' or a defense against losing a rolling scissors I know for me it started out that way flying a 109k4 almost exclusively. If the scissors are Rolling to the right instead of following the enemy's flight path through the scissors I would almost go diagonally straight up roll right at the top and down aiming about mid wing of the opponent just out of guns on the up stroke as he starts to come down from his loop, flying inside his loop rather than trying to match it or make mine bigger.

Like I said it started off as a defence against losing a rolling scissors but I found after I had perfected it, it worked better than pure rolling scissors in a k4 against most opposition.

[Mace2004]

I don't know if it has a name or not maybe someone here would know? or would be classed as 'rolling scissors' or a defense against losing a rolling scissors I know for me it started out that way flying a 109k4 almost exclusively. If the scissors are Rolling to the right instead of following the enemy's flight path through the scissors I would almost go diagonally straight up roll right at the top and down aiming about mid wing of the opponent just out of guns on the up stroke as he starts to come down from his loop, flying inside his loop rather than trying to match it or make mine bigger.

Like I said it started off as a defence against losing a rolling scissors but I found after I had perfected it, it worked better than pure rolling scissors in a k4 against most opposition.

Sorry Pervert but it's a bit tough to visualize this from your description but I'll take a shot. 

It sounds that what you're doing is trying to transition a rolling scissors to a vertical flat scissors.  A flat scissors is a scissors done predominently in one plane and is usually first thought of as a plane parrallel to the earth.  Take the same scissors and rotate it 90degrees and it's a vertical flat scissors.

I take it that at the bottom as you start up you're putting your lift vector right on your opponent and once past and at the top of your vertical move you roll to again put your lift vector on him taking advantage of your smaller turn radius with a forward quarter shot opportunity on the way back down.  The K4 does this very well due to it's shear power. 

If your opponent doesn't want, or doesn't have the E, to play the pure vertical game and continues more of a rolling scissors (and provided you do have the E for it) your "flat scissors" will still contain lots of roll but instead of being continuous, the roll will mostly be contained at the top and bottom of your vertical move.  The trick with this is to make sure you roll enough to actually pull down on a point ahead of him...i.e., where he will be, so you can stay pure vertical and get crossing shots.  Also, since you're not working "behind" him make sure you don't get slow at the top or too fast across the bottom.  If you do either of these, he can come out of his rolling scissors, pull directly into you and pop you.

[Mace2004]

Wow Mace!!!

I've never had this explained quite so elegant before.I have been doing this exact thing for some time now but I've never been able to explain it properly before.The "extended 6" makes a much beter term to explain this with,using "lag"it is often confussing for newer players and I 've felt I've never gotten that point across before!

Thank you Morfiend, always happy to help.  Let me add a couple of things to this. 

First, people ask "how far behind the opponent do you put your lift vector?"  The answer is that it varies according to the geometry of the scissors.  If it's a very vertical scissors with little down range travel it may be difficult to point your lift vector behind him at all, you may only be able to pull directly towards his tail.  If it's this tight you may want to counter him with a pure vertical flat scissors.  If the rolling scissors is more stretched out with clearly defined down range movement then you should be able to aim for a position one or two aircraft lengths behind him.  If he lets you lag him by two or more aircraft lengths, the scissors will be very short as he'll shoot out front in one or two evolutions.

Also, there are two main things to look at in a rolling scissors to gauge how it's going.  Can you keep your lift vector behind him and is he tending to move forward or backward on your canopy during the fight?  If you can't keep the vector behind him, he will also gradually move farther and farther back on your canopy.  That means you're loosing the fight and you have to adjust your lift vector, change tactics, or disengage.  If you can keep the vector behind him and he's moving farther back on your canopy then you're winning.

[SPKmes]

Nice post.. I am lucky enough to have a trainer as my CO and was shown through this. I had read and looked at the pics but the static pics really didn't give me a full explanation of how this was done.....With the 3d visual I feel this is easier to grasp and understand and when you practice and review film there will be more of an understanding of where you went right or wrong as you know what you are looking for.

Once the basic knowledge is there the little tinkering to give you that extra drag, lift, turning ability to get you in behind can begin as others have started talking about. Like I said I was lucky, had I not had this training I would probably still be carrying out these basic maneuvers wrong whilst thinking all the time I was getting it right.

Perhaps some more of these visuals for some of the staples of flight would be nice too.


Oh yes and Junky...that particular maneuver you talk of....stop it...I will not count the kill if you perform this on me again  

[pervert]

Sorry Pervert but it's a bit tough to visualize this from your description but I'll take a shot. 

It sounds that what you're doing is trying to transition a rolling scissors to a vertical flat scissors.  A flat scissors is a scissors done predominently in one plane and is usually first thought of as a plane parrallel to the earth.  Take the same scissors and rotate it 90degrees and it's a vertical flat scissors.

I take it that at the bottom as you start up you're putting your lift vector right on your opponent and once past and at the top of your vertical move you roll to again put your lift vector on him taking advantage of your smaller turn radius with a forward quarter shot opportunity on the way back down.  The K4 does this very well due to it's shear power. 

If your opponent doesn't want, or doesn't have the E, to play the pure vertical game and continues more of a rolling scissors (and provided you do have the E for it) your "flat scissors" will still contain lots of roll but instead of being continuous, the roll will mostly be contained at the top and bottom of your vertical move.  The trick with this is to make sure you roll enough to actually pull down on a point ahead of him...i.e., where he will be, so you can stay pure vertical and get crossing shots.  Also, since you're not working "behind" him make sure you don't get slow at the top or too fast across the bottom.  If you do either of these, he can come out of his rolling scissors, pull directly into you and pop you.

Yeah Mace that sounds pretty much spot on its hard to see the pattern when your flying it because its based more on what you see from the cockpit I wish I could draw a diagram lol. I tend to find I get more kills at the top of this manoeuvre when the enemy is slow as taking the crossing shot on the way down is a risky one time shot and if you miss you tend to end up in a bad position.

I guess looking at it from behind it would be kind of a semi circle? Rather than a loop?

I’ve noticed a lot of good sticks I’ve fought will go for the pure vertical in this situation and use the k4s engine to snap roll to the left at the top, gradually after 5 -6 of these I’m gasping for e and cannot follow the manoeuvre even though I may have entered in a superior or equal E state.

[Mace2004]

If you can keep the vector behind him and he's moving farther back on your canopy then you're winning.

Opppps....just saw a typo here.  It should read "he's moving farther FORWARD on your canopy", i.e., closer to your nose means your winning.

[deadstikmac]

Necro bump for importance of the animation. Picture like this is worth how many words?