Author Topic: Is here anybody who are/was pilot of commercial airines?  (Read 496 times)

Offline Vad

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Is here anybody who are/was pilot of commercial airines?
« on: August 26, 2006, 01:38:23 PM »
I mean in the USA/Canada/Western Europe.
Or may be family member of such a pilot?
I have a question for you. What is the structure of salary.... ok, I don't need exact amounts, I want to know  - do you have some bonuses and what do you get it for? For example, do you have bonus payments for fuel economy? Do you have some kind of fines/penalties for excess expenditure of  fuel or return back to airport?

Say, you see a huge storm on the route and decide to come back. Are you afraid to hear something like that from your manager: " Man, you came back but Luftgunza and Alitalia came through without any problems. You know, man, fuel is very expensive, and we are starting to think that we  made a mistake when hired you."

I know that in theory, of course, it has never to be happened but I would like to know how it is going on practice.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2006, 01:41:12 PM by Vad »

Offline Dago

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Is here anybody who are/was pilot of commercial airines?
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2006, 01:47:01 PM »
Do you think an airline pilot would find it a career wise decision to discuss company policies regarding operations on a public forum?
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline Vad

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Is here anybody who are/was pilot of commercial airines?
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2006, 01:56:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dago
Do you think an airline pilot would find it a career wise decision to discuss company policies regarding operations on a public forum?


Why not? If company policy strictly enforce to put safety on the first place they will be happy to explain that on a public forum. If they don't want to discuss it, it means that something is not so good as it has to be.

Offline Vad

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Is here anybody who are/was pilot of commercial airines?
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2006, 02:01:23 PM »
And, BTW, I didn't ask about company names, and most of the persons here are anonymous. They discussed even their own actions during the Cold War being military officers.
And, may be, there are ex-pilots who don't worry about career any more.

Offline Golfer

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Re: Is here anybody who are/was pilot of commercial airines?
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2006, 03:06:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vad
I mean in the USA/Canada/Western Europe.
Or may be family member of such a pilot?
I have a question for you. What is the structure of salary.... ok, I don't need exact amounts, I want to know  - do you have some bonuses and what do you get it for? For example, do you have bonus payments for fuel economy? Do you have some kind of fines/penalties for excess expenditure of  fuel or return back to airport?

Say, you see a huge storm on the route and decide to come back. Are you afraid to hear something like that from your manager: " Man, you came back but Luftgunza and Alitalia came through without any problems. You know, man, fuel is very expensive, and we are starting to think that we  made a mistake when hired you."

I know that in theory, of course, it has never to be happened but I would like to know how it is going on practice.


For your typical airline (in the U.S. a part 121 carrier) pay is based on position (Captain, First Officer, Second Officer or Flight Engineer if required) and longevity.  First year pay is usually significantly lower than second year pay because the first year is considered your probationary year.  During the first year you are usually not protected by the union and if your performance is not where it should be the company can minimize its losses by releasing you.

As for fuel bonuses...nope.  Fuel burn is part of doing business.  You do your best to minimize fuel burn by flying the most efficient profiles and power settings.  When you consider just a percentage point of fuel savings spread over a large airline fleet it can amount to a significant chunk of change and thus airlines often seek such profiles.  In the corporate/charter world it's less a problem but still exists.

Now as far as "not getting the job done" as mentioned before that's a different issue.  In charter flying you are often pressured to get the job done.  It's a difficult business to turn a profit and the more you fly the better your chances are at making money.  Sometimes you weigh the situation based on what's going on but fuel has never been an issue.  For charter/corporate flying this is because the owner can afford the fuel regardless of cost (hence why we're hitting $6/gallon at Teterboro) and the cost is transferred directly to the customer.  The company doesn't care because they're not footing the bill.  As soon as the money starts to become an issue, it's the time to start sending resume's.

Now the problem that will always happen in the charter world is that if you make the decision to not go you will be criticized by everyone in mangement to try to get you to "get the job done" and "help the company" by being a "team player"

Again...judgement.  At my company any crewmember can ground a flight for any reason.  That sounds great  but there had better be a good reason.  There are often times we will tell mx about something that is happening but is no reason to ground the airplane.  An inop switch on the GPS comes to mind.  We lost the big knob on a Garmin GPS400 and simply made the flight using VORs the old fashioned way.  It made things busier for the nonflying pilot but is no big deal.

fortunately we have Minimum Equipment Lists for such times as well.  It's written there in black and white what you need, what you can fly without and the conditions you can go without it.  We had a situation recently where a circut breaker popped (a whopping 1 amp CB!) and it took the altitude alerter and autopilot controls.  This is no big deal in itself.  We were not going into RVSM airspace (above FL290) which requires an autopilot and altitude alert/hold.  This is something I wouldn't cancel for but according to the MEL we can only continue with an operating autopilot with alert/hold functions.  no-go.  Fortunately we were at home, came back in and made some phone calls.  in 30 minutes we had a new flight director computer installed (another airplane was down for a phase 1-4 inspection) and were on our way.

Even during this clear cut (according to the manuals) no-go situation the chief pilot, assistant chief and owner of the company came down trying to force the other guy to go without it.  He stuck to his guns, I gained more respect for him and didn't have to put myself on the line as well to stand fast to the decision.  Other situations have warranted similar visits by management to push you to make the trip.

Weather is often another gotchya that can bite you in the rear trying to get the job done.  What's legal to do for a part 91 flight (owner usage) is not in a 135 regarding weather minimums.  According to the regulations we cannot launch if the weather doesn't meet certain criteria.  Many pilots have not made it home after being pressured into flying through bad weather or during times when your instincts tell you not to.  The Gulfstream crash at Aspen, CO a few years back is a textbook example of trying to complete the mission at the cost of safety.  The customer had spent a lot of money on a function that night and the pilots wanting to get the job done (we all do want a 100% safe and successful completion rate) wound up shooting an approach at night time that isnt supposed to be flown at night and crashed about a mile from the airport.

Fortunately there are alternatives to going through weather and the best one is to simply go around it.  Afternoon summer thunderstorms are usually not intense as thunderstorms go, isolated and easy to pick your way through with the proper tools (radar, stormscope, satellite weather).  The big super thunderstorms of the midwest that spawn tornadoes and all sorts of evil are easily avoided and you then return to where you started from or pick an alternate airport to sit and wait out the weather.  This should all be planned for before your wheels ever start rolling and turns into a non event if everything is done properly.

Hope it helped.

Offline Golfer

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Is here anybody who are/was pilot of commercial airines?
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2006, 03:10:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dago
Do you think an airline pilot would find it a career wise decision to discuss company policies regarding operations on a public forum?



I can get this one I think...

Pilot for XYZ Airways:  "This company sucks!"
Pilot for ABC Airlines Express Connection:  "No!  This company sucks!"
Pilot at 134.5 operator:  "My company really sucks!"
Pilot with great corpoate gig:  "My job is the best!"

It's not like he's asking for code words for security information and procedures.  Saying you're supposed to avoid severe thunderstorms or fly at 87% N1 in cruise isn't going to hurt anyone.  God forbid anyone learn the standard company callouts:O

Offline cpxxx

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Is here anybody who are/was pilot of commercial airines?
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2006, 04:07:44 PM »
Obviously you are referring to the recent Tu154 crash in the Ukraine. The conclusion of many is that the captain tried to outclimb a thunderstorm and spun in. In part because he feared being penalised for turning back. The answer quite simply is that it probably wouldn't happen to a western airline or indeed to a non T tail aircraft. T tail aircraft like the Tu154 are known for a phenomenon called the 'deep stall'. In a spin the tail is blanked by wing wash. There is no recovery from that. It would simply spin right to the ground.

In a typical western airline this would not happen.  Standards have dropped a bit but not so much as it appears in the former Soviet Union.

As for western airlines well in Europe Ryanair rather dominates. They operate a bonus system for on time departures and arrivals. They also pay per sector, that is per flight. It's a significant part of their salary. The more you fly the more you get paid. Bad weather plays havoc with that. But they still get a good basic salary. In fact they usually fly the maximum of 900 hours per year in nine months and often sit out the months of January to March.  It's not too much of a hardship as many Captains earn about about $165,000 per year.  Compare that to the pay of Russian airline Captains. However it is fair to say the new pilots earn a lot less and many earn very little in the first couple of year. I have a number of friend working for Ryanair and may indeed work for them myself in due course.

I don't believe their is a fine system in any western airline company.

Despite all this there is a strong safety element and weather diversions are not a cause for discipline, however do it once too often and you will come under the scrutiny of the bosses.  Ryanair is often considered one of the worst companies to work for in term of economic pressures and ahole management but it has a very safe record.

I would suggest having a look at PPRuNe.org and looking a rumours and news. I'm sure it's covered there somehow.

Offline Vad

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Is here anybody who are/was pilot of commercial airines?
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2006, 04:08:55 PM »
Thank you, Golfer.

May be you understood why I was asking that. Flight 612, TU-154, Anapa-St.Petersburg, 170 died.
I don't want to discuss the reason of catastrophe, I am waiting for results of investigation. But among other facts russian newspapers discussed the fact that russian pilots have a bonus for fuel economy. And it might be one of the reasons why first pilot decided to fly over storm not come back.

I just wanted to know this fuel economy is russian invention , or it is common practice.

Offline B17Skull12

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Is here anybody who are/was pilot of commercial airines?
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2006, 11:33:45 PM »
Aspen, CO is a ***** to get into.
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Offline Golfer

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Is here anybody who are/was pilot of commercial airines?
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2006, 11:38:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by B17Skull12
Aspen, CO is a ***** to get into.


Not really.  It's just unforgiving and as a result of the accident strictly prohibited at night time.  It's actually very beautiful and my own minimums are essentially VFR conditions, fully configured at red table and be in no hurry with plenty of fuel on board.

I'd also like the engine failures and TR deployments to stay in the simulator.  No thanks on a real-life one for me.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2006, 11:40:53 PM by Golfer »

Offline JTs

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Is here anybody who are/was pilot of commercial airines?
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2006, 03:59:02 PM »
always watching the sky around pittsburgh now

Offline Trikky

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Is here anybody who are/was pilot of commercial airines?
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2006, 04:28:53 PM »
A little off topic but what are the advantages in the design of a T tail like the Tupolev and the C-17, especially after cpxxx mentions the deep stall characteristic?

Offline RAIDER14

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Re: Is here anybody who are/was pilot of commercial airines?
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2006, 05:03:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vad
I mean in the USA/Canada/Western Europe.
Or may be family member of such a pilot?
I have a question for you. What is the structure of salary.... ok, I don't need exact amounts, I want to know  - do you have some bonuses and what do you get it for? For example, do you have bonus payments for fuel economy? Do you have some kind of fines/penalties for excess expenditure of  fuel or return back to airport?

Say, you see a huge storm on the route and decide to come back. Are you afraid to hear something like that from your manager: " Man, you came back but Luftgunza and Alitalia came through without any problems. You know, man, fuel is very expensive, and we are starting to think that we  made a mistake when hired you."

I know that in theory, of course, it has never to be happened but I would like to know how it is going on practice.


If I were you I would fly for 1 of the Cargo Airlines so you don't have to worry about anyone breaking into the cockpit

Offline Golfer

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Is here anybody who are/was pilot of commercial airines?
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2006, 05:17:55 PM »
Why don't you read about this while you're jumpseating on southwest

Offline nirvana

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Is here anybody who are/was pilot of commercial airines?
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2006, 07:44:12 PM »
Colorado is a ***** to get into anyway, B17.  A pilot friend of mine said it was something about the drafts off the mountains, tons of turbulence.  Last time we came in east to west and it was smooth as silk though, so i'm not sure.
Who are you to wave your finger?