Author Topic: It’s true. We’ve lost the moral high ground  (Read 2715 times)

Offline Eagler

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It’s true. We’ve lost the moral high ground
« Reply #60 on: September 20, 2006, 05:27:46 PM »
House panel backs Bush on detainees

wonder if the senate will fall in line next
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Offline dhaus

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It’s true. We’ve lost the moral high ground
« Reply #61 on: September 20, 2006, 07:04:14 PM »
What is the purpose of torture, again?  To gain information?  Why, then, are the military chiefs against torture?  They need the information.  If they know that our sevicemen and women will suffer worse at the hands of the "insurgency" no matter what we do, why not torture?  Because it doesn't work.  Any intelligence gained as a result of torture is, at best, suspect, and, at worst, wrong.  You get what the tortured prisoner thinks you want to hear - no matter whether it is correct or not.  I think I'll trust our military on this one rather than the chickenhawks in charge of the government.  Of course, given that the military officers are correct and the chickenhawks are wrong, the military folks standing against torture will be fired and the chickenhawks will get their freedom medals (again).  Its fascinating that John Warner (who served and is a friend to the Pentagon) and McCain are standing up to Bush on this one.

Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #62 on: September 20, 2006, 08:26:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Neubob

There is no such thing as moral high ground in warfare. It's an illusion that will cost us dearly. The one who wins is the one who demonstrates will where his enemy does not. The one who loses is the one who starts weeping over the poor broken body of his enemy. Unless we're ready to accept that there are no nice guys in war, we should avoid engaging in it.

The Muslims' lack of scruples, their willingness to go the extra mile and do what we find reprehensible, is what gives them an edge.
Our nuclear arsenal, which has been castrated by our moral code (no, I am not advocating its use, I am only pointing out that the whole world knows that we won't), is useless in the face of their IEDs and beheading videos.


Bingo! Right on the money.

It was worded perfectly in Apocolypse Now.

"the Horror, the horror"
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #63 on: September 20, 2006, 08:31:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by dhaus
What is the purpose of torture, again?  To gain information?  Why, then, are the military chiefs against torture?  They need the information.  If they know that our sevicemen and women will suffer worse at the hands of the "insurgency" no matter what we do, why not torture?  Because it doesn't work.  Any intelligence gained as a result of torture is, at best, suspect, and, at worst, wrong.  You get what the tortured prisoner thinks you want to hear - no matter whether it is correct or not.  I think I'll trust our military on this one rather than the chickenhawks in charge of the government.  Of course, given that the military officers are correct and the chickenhawks are wrong, the military folks standing against torture will be fired and the chickenhawks will get their freedom medals (again).  Its fascinating that John Warner (who served and is a friend to the Pentagon) and McCain are standing up to Bush on this one.


show me again where the military chiefs are against interrogation.....again unless you think sleep deprevation is "torture".

BUT,  you missed the begining where it said CIA....not military.

Offline Silat

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« Reply #64 on: September 20, 2006, 11:11:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eagl
Honestly, it sounds like torture to me.  Yea taken one incident all by itself, it's no big deal, but over time there is no term that describes it other than torture.

Everything on that list was given to me as a examples of what the "other guys" (ie. enemy) did to Vietnam POWs, and that I could expect at least that level of treatment if captured.

Hearing that we do it makes me f**king sick, and I just know that it'll come back to us in the form of increased torture used against US servicemen/women when they're captured.  We were taught in basic training that the ends do not justify those means, yet now our government is going directly against training given to all US military members, doing things that we've been told all along are illegal and horrible.

So who's fault is it when military members figure that all the other crap they heard was "illegal" doesn't matter either?  Maybe rape and murder is ok, since torture is ok now, right?

Makes me want to puke.



I disagree with much that you say but on this issue we are in full agreement and I cant see how anyone can see otherwise.
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Offline Elfie

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« Reply #65 on: September 20, 2006, 11:13:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by tedrbr
It was a reply to your comment about what SEALs, (or anyone who goes through SERE -- survival, evasion, resistance and escape -- training for that matter) go through compared to the "lighter" treatments given to those prisoners..... military personnel and those being detained are not held to similar standards.

Two different standards... press, politics, and the public will not let you compare them like that.


My point was, how can you call it torture when we put our own military personell through the same thing? Wouldn't you then have to say we are torturing our own people?
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Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #66 on: September 21, 2006, 12:26:52 AM »
Hi Elfie,

Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
My point was, how can you call it torture when we put our own military personell through the same thing? Wouldn't you then have to say we are torturing our own people?


I have obviously never gone through SERE training myself, but I have many friends who have. The purpose of the "Resist" portion of the training is to prepare our troops to survive in the kind of inhuman conditions that nations that ingnored the Geneva convention kept captured troops under. It was developed by a Green Beret by the name of Nick Rowe who escaped from North Vietnam after five years without ever being broken under torture. The idea was that we had to realize that countries like North Vietnam were going to ignore all the protocols of war and do whatever they felt necessary to extract information and that our troops needed to be prepared to resist that and if possible, escape. Therefore, the idea behind SERE is to try to come as close as possible via simulation to the kind of torture our troops could have expected from a country like North Vietnam. The point is that we knew it was wrong, but had to be prepared for it. The idea that we would use even simulations of the same wrong methods on enemy combatants ourselves, moves us one step closer to the camp of the very enemies whose methods we decried.  

Personally, I believe we should have followed the Laws of Land Warfare to the letter from the very beginning. They identify the following (amongst others) as war crimes -

Quote
504. Other Types of War Crimes

In addition to the "grave breaches" of the Geneva Conventions of 1949, the following acts are representative of violations of the law of war (" war crimes"):

a. Making use of poisoned or otherwise forbidden arms or ammunition.

b. Treacherous request for quarter.

c. Maltreatment of dead bodies.

d. Firing on localities which are undefended and without military significance.

e. Abuse of or firing on the flag of truce.

f. Misuse of the Red Cross emblem.

g. Use of civilian clothing by troops to conceal their military character during battle.

h. Improper use of privileged buildings for military purposes.

i. Poisoning of wells or streams.

j. Pillage or purposeless destruction.

k. Compelling prisoners of war to perform prohibited labor.

l. Killing without trial spies or other persons who have committed hostile acts.

m. Compelling civilians to perform prohibited labor.

n. Violation of surrender terms.


The Jihadis all routinely violate b, c, d, f, G - CONSTANTLY, h, j, & l. The violations above are all punishable by death if they are proven in a military tribunal. Therefore, once we caught Jihadis who have violated the above, we should have fairly tried them by military tribunal, and if found guilty of the above violations, shot them or applied penal sanctions of fixed term for lesser infractions (lets see how Jihad ready you are after serving a sentence as long as say Hess or Albert Speer). All of which is absolutely legal according to the Geneva Conventions.  This is exactly the manner in which the US Army dealt with the German "werewolf" guerillas in occupied territory, and which proved very effective in terminating that particular "insurgency".

Instead we are going to continue to fail to apply the above, because presumably we are afraid of the negative international fall-out of actually applying certain necessary provisions of the internationally agreed rules of land warfare, while moving to breach other provisions of the same agreements out of "necessity."
« Last Edit: September 21, 2006, 12:31:46 AM by Seagoon »
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
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Offline Elfie

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« Reply #67 on: September 21, 2006, 02:59:01 AM »
SERE training wasnt what I was talking about. We put our Navy SEALs through all kinds of stuff. Things like, keeping them wet and shivering, sleep deprivation etc, all in an effort to weed out those who cant hack it.

*edit* I do consider the coffin deal to be torture, and I do not condone that behavior. It should not have happened, period.

*edit* One more time, it's late and I'm tired lol. I agree with the rest of your post Seagoon. Just clarifing what I was talking about ;)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2006, 03:03:51 AM by Elfie »
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Offline AKH

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« Reply #68 on: September 21, 2006, 05:40:10 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
My point was, how can you call it torture when we put our own military personell through the same thing? Wouldn't you then have to say we are torturing our own people?

Simple - exercises aren't the real thing.
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Offline Seagoon

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It’s true. We’ve lost the moral high ground
« Reply #69 on: September 21, 2006, 11:10:29 AM »
"When all was over, torture and cannibalism were the only two expedients that the civilized, scientific, Christian States had been able to deny themselves: and these were of doubtful utility." - Churchill commenting on World War I.

Hi Guys,

Well, if there is one thing that the OC does on a regular basis, it is to spur me to do further research I don't have time for. As I went to bed last night, I was racking my brain to see if I could remember any evangelical Christian authors who had attempted to make a defence of torture, and couldn't. So, I woke up early this morning and spent some time doing what research I could into find out what has been written by theologians on the subject of torture.

Interestingly, but perhaps not surprisingly, the only strong advocates of the "necessity" of torture that I found in the Christian community were liberal and neo-orthodox (to clarify neo-orthodoxy is not conservative nor orthodox) protestant theologians like Niebuhr who argued against strict moral boundaries founded on scripture and in favor of situational, pragmatic, or utilitarian ethics. In fact, for most theologians it simply wasn't addressed because it was a "no-brainer"; Christians were the people who historically are tortured for their faith, not the people conducting the torture - and that it is worthwhile to note that while the Inquisition may have been conducted in the name of "the church", many of those tortured were tortured in order to break their adherence to the biblical gospel.

Unlike just war theory, no coherent biblical argument can or has even attempted to be made in favor of torture. There is no biblical precedent for it. Even in the Herem (the conquest of Canaan) where the Lord commanded the capital punishment of those nations that had grossly transgressed His laws for centuries (including the common practice of infant sacrifice by fire) he never commanded or condoned torturing the inhabitants of those nations. Certainly we do not see any of the Lord's people in the Old or New Testaments torturing , and that is not because it wouldn't have been useful in ancient warfare. Arguably, in the time before reconaissance, radio intercepts, satellites, etc. torture would have been more useful.

Anyway, here is an excellent summary statement and then finally a link to recent evangelical/conservative Catholic symposium on torture which used Charles Krauthammer's piece in favor of the use of torture as a jumping off point. As you will see, this is definitely a place where evangelical Christians and secular conservatives part ways because Christians are absolutely constrained never to do something inherently evil that good might come of it.

Quote
Conclusion

While admittedly, the anti-torture stance argued for here may not satisfy the pragmatist, the Christian must remember that life on a fallen planet does not guarantee the kind of safety, security, and consequences Krauthammer is trying to use as motivation to justify torture. Nor does it become justifiable to break a command based on circumstances or an uncertain prediction of future events—even when the event appears likely. One does not always have to like the boundaries that commands give us to know they are best to be obeyed. Thus, the just warrior engages the enemy within principled boundaries if for no other reason than it is wrong to do so and breaking the boundaries makes him no different than the one he is combating. We worship God, not safety.

In making his case Krauthammer makes reference to George Bernard Shaw’s joke about the man who asks a woman if she’d sleep with him for a million dollars. When she says yes, he asks if she’d sleep with him for five dollars. Indignantly the woman then responds, “What do you think I am?” The answer given is: “We’re already established what you are, ma’am, now we’re just haggling over the price.” What strikes me as amazing about Krauthammer’s argument is that he so readily admits his is an ethic of prostituted principle. In his citation of Shaw, not only does he cavalierly toss aside the foundations of just-war principles at the price of speculative safety, like a profligate schoolboy he has the audacity to claim this is the only path to the moral manliness of his “rational moral calculus.”

One can’t help in the final analysis recall the words of Caiaphas as he argued that crucifying Jesus was the only way to save the way of life the Pharisees had come to love and cherish: “It is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation should not perish.” Caiaphas was right in the sense that his prediction did prove to be of great value for the many, but this does not justify the ethic under which he functioned. One would need to be perfectly omniscient in order to have proportionalism or utilitarianism be the guiding moral principle. For those of us who are not omniscient, commands and principles must lead the way and shape how a utilitarian calculus is employed. Certainly one could foresee that if employed Krauthammer’s Caiaphas ethic may indeed provide the results he argues for—but at what price? The argument may sound good, but we must be careful lest we forget that this “Caiaphas ethic” is far more dangerous than it appears. Indeed, it can even be used to justify the murder of God. - MArk Leiderbach -  Associate Professor of Christian Ethics at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary


The Truth About Torture? A Christian Ethics Symposium
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
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Offline lukster

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« Reply #70 on: September 21, 2006, 11:14:41 AM »
There's really a simple solution to the torture question. Take no prisoners.

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #71 on: September 21, 2006, 11:23:59 AM »
PS: Darrell Cole's essay at the above cited symposium starts off slightly flawed in one or two of its premises, but I think his concluding paragraphs on the fatal errors made by the "moral realist's" approach to to torture sum up the ethical absolutists argument against torture perfectly . The argument below will probably only have an appeal to the serious Christian or at least someone who believes in natural law, but I think he is right in his reasoning against the use of torture -

Quote
Moral realists wish to placate the troubled conscience; thus Krauthammer claims that if we allow torture, we will be able to place limits on who we torture. But once the threshold is crossed, how do we keep from pushing forward? History tells us that it is very difficult to cross a moral threshold and simply stop, even when the reason used to justify the crossing of the threshold in the first place no longer exists. The Allied war leaders during World War II, for example, were conscience of crossing a moral threshold when they began bombing innocent civilians during the early years of the war, and by the end of the war, such bombing tactics became more and more savage despite the fact that Allied victory was no longer in doubt. Once you began to accept an evil action as morally permissible because it is effective for some good purpose it becomes very difficult to quit relying upon it.

Moreover, if effectiveness is what allows us to cross the first threshold, why would it not allow us to push onward if we must in order to save lives? Any law that allows procedures out of necessity is a law made with necessity in mind. If necessity dictates what is legally permissible, then necessity will dictate the limits on who and how we torture.

Krauthammer would surely claim, for example, that we would not torture moral innocents such as children, but the "we" he would be talking about are people who have never lived in a society where torture is legally and morally acceptable. Who is to say what we will next allow once we get used to the idea of torturing people? If the evil of torture is allowed on principle in order to save lives, then why stop with torturing the terrorists themselves, if that is not working, and start torturing their children or other loved ones instead?

Torture can work; that is the monstrous thing about it, as Krauthammer agrees. We are tempted to torture precisely because we can get accurate information from the tortured. How much more good information could we get if we tortured before the very eyes of the terrorists their sons, daughters, wives, mothers, fathers? I for one feel sure that most people could better face the actual physical torments of the blowtorch and pair of pliers on their own person than watch their loved ones even approached with these instruments.

Krauthammer admits that torture corrupts the society that practices it. However, such problems do not worry the moral realist, since the logic of moral realism can accept demeaning our society a little bit with evil acts when those evil acts are necessary to prevent us losing our society altogether. Put differently, it makes no sense, from the moral realist’s point of view, to say that an action demeans society when that demeaning action may be the only way to save society. So the choice the moral realist presents us is a stained society (one that is preserved with evil acts) or no society at all. When the good to be protected at all costs is our society or even our own persons, then its survival dictates what is morally permissible.

For Christians, the kind of reasoning demonstrated here evidences a love for something greater than our ultimate good, which is God. Moral realism and dirty hands moral philosophy are moral tools for those who have turned our society or our own personal safety into an idol. When we love anything more than God, and demonstrate this greater love for a lesser good with immoral acts, we think and act like idolaters. Those who are willing to do evil in order to save themselves have placed themselves above God. Let us repeat: this is a form of idolatry--neither pure nor simple, but idolatry all the same.

Civilized people may have some scruples about the use of torture, although a cursory glance through any number of history books—or even a cursory glance at any evening's viewing of the History Channel—will show that many civilized peoples have used torture frequently and effectively. People torture because they fear the consequences of not torturing—in short, they fear death. Augustine taught that there are far worse things to fear than death—such as doing moral evil. Luther taught that if you feared anything more than God, then God is not God to you. If you are willing to do evil in order to save your life, then you love yourself more than you love God. Moral realists want Americans to accept the necessary evil of torture in order to win the war on terror. Thousands of innocent lives are at stake. But even if thousands of lives are at stake, even if, to go even further, to lose the war on terror is to lose all that we in the West hold dear, Christians cannot do evil to preserve what they hold dear.

More to the point, if we are tempted to do evil in order to preserve what we hold dear, then we are holding the wrong things dear. No real good demands evil to preserve it. Instead, those who want to see a good preserved demand that we do evil to preserve it. But if the ultimate human good is a good that is incompatible with doing evil, then we may not do evil to preserve it. When moral realists tell Christians that they must do evil in order to save themselves, and Christians are tempted to heed this advice, they should realize that they have become their own false gods.

Moral realists like to formulate dilemmas that require we choose evil if we wish to preserve a cherished good. This hinders our ability to formulate other solutions. Those who know that they can use evil do not need to think about how to win without doing evil. If Christians are to support the war on terror, and they ought to support a just war, they need to be reasonably sure that their government does not as a matter of policy torture people in order to get information. Christians—and all those opposed to torture—should be urging their governments to think about other ways to win the war on terror.

Of course, many people are not troubled by the thought of torturing people who would like to see the West go up in flames and who possess information about plans that will light as many of those fires as possible. But we cannot harm people simply because they would like to harm us and possess knowledge about plans to harm us. Certainly we may detain them, question them, and keep them very uncomfortable and miserable, but not torture them.

To torture someone, or to countenance your government torturing someone, is to admit that you fear death more than you fear displeasing God and it is to admit that you love something more than you love God. To torture someone is to betray a disordered love for something that can never be a proper ultimate good. Not even our society or our own lives, as much as we love them, are that good. - Darrell Cole, Assistant Professor of Religion at Drew University


Again, please keep in mind, that most of these men are advocates of just war theory, so this is not an argument in any way rooted in pacificism.
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Meatwad

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« Reply #72 on: September 21, 2006, 11:38:39 AM »
Isnt al-jezerra uplinked to a satellite? Given the US technology, couldnt we just overpower the uplink signal and start showing some porn on it
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Offline lukster

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« Reply #73 on: September 21, 2006, 11:39:13 AM »
Seagoon, I agree with the gist of what he is saying. However, there are two points i think he made based on emotion rather than reason. First, he cited civilians as "innocent". When countries wage war, innocence, is perhaps an irrelevant word. Second, he made the statement that torture "corrupts" a society yet did not substantiate that claim.

Offline Edbert

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« Reply #74 on: September 21, 2006, 12:13:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Meatwad
Isnt al-jezerra uplinked to a satellite? Given the US technology, couldnt we just overpower the uplink signal and start showing some porn on it

I have a former coworker, IT dweeb, who I am still in contact with, who works for a major pr0n syndicate. He has assured me that an overwhelmingly disproportionate number of hits on the various sites come from IP addresses in the Middle East, and that they are also disporportionately associated with the most...ummm..."radical" subject matter imaginable.

...just saying...