Author Topic: Kerry "Your educated and smart or your in Iraq"  (Read 4008 times)

Offline Vudak

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Kerry "Your educated and smart or your in Iraq"
« Reply #60 on: October 31, 2006, 08:13:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
the separation of church and state was a sentence in a letter jefferson wrote to weezie.  the right to bear arms is granted to all bruins, sheesh you liberals are really sad.


And so the conservatives have taken the field in the realm of US History.  A point has been awarded.

Next category: Science :p
Vudak
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Offline Gunslinger

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Kerry "Your educated and smart or your in Iraq"
« Reply #61 on: October 31, 2006, 08:14:32 PM »
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Originally posted by Gryffin
You are all incorrect.

Kerry's quote was not a stab at servicemen/women. It was a stab at Bush. He was saying that bush was uneducated and as a result america has ended up in iraq.

Of course, taking the quote completely out of context makes for a much better sound bite.

http://www.wcsh6.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=44314


I have served my country honorably for the last 11 years of my life.  I never went to college and I took it as an insult.  Tell me I'm incorrect!

Offline BlueJ1

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Kerry "Your educated and smart or your in Iraq"
« Reply #62 on: October 31, 2006, 08:35:40 PM »
The "new" Navy requires that you obtain degrees at certain points in your career. If you dont achieve the required degree you are shown the door. But the "new" Navy will make it almost impossible to not obtain the degree as long as you serve your time. This goes for enlisted as well as officers. This should be in full effect early into my career.

Someone mentioned selective service. If they meant that a draft of sorts would be beneficial I have to disagree. Ive talked to many old salts and they all agree that during Vietnam and for a short time after their Navy was in ruins do to the large numbers of personnel that  either did drugs or had none of the qualities of a sailor (honor, courage, commitment). One vet made the analogy that it was like the Navy had a stroke of sorts. It took time to recover and weed out the problems, but overall it came back stronger and better. I personally would leave the military as soon as soon as possible knowing that I had to serve with others that had no respect toward their job or had none of the many reasons that servicemen and woman serve their country. Servicemen and women's lives are already dangerous and tasking enough without screwups adding to their problems.
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Offline rpm

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Kerry "Your educated and smart or your in Iraq"
« Reply #63 on: October 31, 2006, 08:35:51 PM »
How about you're overreacting.
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Offline Gunslinger

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Kerry "Your educated and smart or your in Iraq"
« Reply #64 on: October 31, 2006, 08:47:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm
How about you're overreacting.


It doesn't make sense as a joke, then again kerry doesn't seem like he has a sense of humor.


Here's some stats about military education

Quote
Academic Education

-- 49.2 percent of officers have advanced or professional degrees; 39.4 percent have master's degrees, 8.5 percent have professional degrees and 1.3 percent have doctorate degrees.

-- 22.8 percent of company grade officers have advanced degrees; 16.5 percent have master's degrees, 5.9 percent have professional degrees and 0.3 percent have doctorate degrees.

-- 85.4 percent of field grade officers have advanced degrees; 70.7 percent have master's degrees, 12.1 percent have professional degrees and 2.5 percent have doctorate degrees.

-- 99.9 percent of the enlisted force have at least a high school education; 73.3 percent have some semester hours toward a college degree; 16.2 percent have an associate's degree or equivalent semester hours; 4.7 percent have a bachelor's degree; 0.7 percent have a master's degree and .01 percent have a professional or doctorate degree."
http://www.af.mil/news/story_print.asp?storyID=123027385

Offline rpm

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Kerry "Your educated and smart or your in Iraq"
« Reply #65 on: October 31, 2006, 08:59:30 PM »
I agree the military has become smarter over the years. They became much more selective on recruits and required continuing education. But the fact remains that the rich and highly educated are going into the private sector, not the military. This is especially true during war. Same thing today as 150 years ago.
My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.
Stay thirsty my friends.

Offline BlueJ1

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Kerry "Your educated and smart or your in Iraq"
« Reply #66 on: October 31, 2006, 09:09:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm
I agree the military has become smarter over the years. They became much more selective on recruits and required continuing education. But the fact remains that the rich and highly educated are going into the private sector, not the military. This is especially true during war. Same thing today as 150 years ago.


The highly educated are usually the ones that have the money to afford a higher education. I believe that children raised in homes with money not being a problem are raised without the same morals and mindset as children raised in families with money being a major factor in day to day life. Im not saying rick children have no morals are and satan's spawn. Im saying that their morals and beliefs play a lesser role in their lives compared to the middle and lower class families. These children in poorer families see the military as a sort of family for them that they can be educated, make money, and continue to live in a environment that morals play a bigger role in life.
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Offline x0847Marine

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Kerry "Your educated and smart or your in Iraq"
« Reply #67 on: October 31, 2006, 09:42:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gryffin
You are all incorrect.

Kerry's quote was not a stab at servicemen/women. It was a stab at Bush. He was saying that bush was uneducated and as a result america has ended up in iraq.

Of course, taking the quote completely out of context makes for a much better sound bite.

http://www.wcsh6.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=44314


Some hack from Kerrys clan said he omitted a few words, lol, apparently hes too stupid to complete the simple task of reading whats been written for him... and too dense to realize hes got athletes tongue from HIS OWN foot being shoved in his mouth.

Considering the company Kerry keeps (crime families top 20 congressional crooks)), its not surprising. If any of these losers had to earn an honest days pay, it might cause their death.

I joined the Marine Reserves to help me get into law enforcement, at 21 years old I was making more than an average college graduate.. and got to carry a gun, all thanks to the Military... but now that I see the light, I now know the path to legitimacy includes botox injections, being neutered, and hooking up with ugly rich chicks.

BTW, am I the only one who can see potatoes growing in Kerrys eyebrows?

Offline Urchin

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Kerry "Your educated and smart or your in Iraq"
« Reply #68 on: October 31, 2006, 09:46:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
It doesn't make sense as a joke, then again kerry doesn't seem like he has a sense of humor.


Here's some stats about military education



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Academic Education

-- 49.2 percent of officers have advanced or professional degrees; 39.4 percent have master's degrees, 8.5 percent have professional degrees and 1.3 percent have doctorate degrees.

-- 22.8 percent of company grade officers have advanced degrees; 16.5 percent have master's degrees, 5.9 percent have professional degrees and 0.3 percent have doctorate degrees.

-- 85.4 percent of field grade officers have advanced degrees; 70.7 percent have master's degrees, 12.1 percent have professional degrees and 2.5 percent have doctorate degrees.

-- 99.9 percent of the enlisted force have at least a high school education; 73.3 percent have some semester hours toward a college degree; 16.2 percent have an associate's degree or equivalent semester hours; 4.7 percent have a bachelor's degree; 0.7 percent have a master's degree and .01 percent have a professional or doctorate degree."
http://www.af.mil/news/story_print....oryID=123027385

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I thought a bachelors degree was a requirement to be a commissioned officer in the armed forces?  How can only have of all officers  have one?  Are they counting NCO's in that total of "officers"?

Offline Vudak

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Kerry "Your educated and smart or your in Iraq"
« Reply #69 on: October 31, 2006, 09:49:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BlueJ1
The highly educated are usually the ones that have the money to afford a higher education. I believe that children raised in homes with money not being a problem are raised without the same morals and mindset as children raised in families with money being a major factor in day to day life. Im not saying rick children have no morals are and satan's spawn. Im saying that their morals and beliefs play a lesser role in their lives compared to the middle and lower class families. These children in poorer families see the military as a sort of family for them that they can be educated, make money, and continue to live in a environment that morals play a bigger role in life.


That's a REAL wide brush you're painting with there, Blue...
Vudak
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Offline Vudak

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Kerry "Your educated and smart or your in Iraq"
« Reply #70 on: October 31, 2006, 09:51:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
I thought a bachelors degree was a requirement to be a commissioned officer in the armed forces?  How can only have of all officers  have one?  Are they counting NCO's in that total of "officers"?


Another point of contention - the 99.9 percent of enlisted men who have at least a high school diploma surely counts those who have a GED.  And anyone who's taken that test can tell you it's NOT the same thing.

Of course, I think I remember hearing that they were phasing out accepting GED kids and going full high school diploma, but I don't know what came of it, and I heard that fairly recently, so all enlisted men having a bona-fide h.s. diploma is certainly not the case now.

It really doesn't matter though...  The military's as good a school as any college...  It just concentrates on different things.  Still useful, no doubt.
Vudak
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Offline bj229r

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Kerry "Your educated and smart or your in Iraq"
« Reply #71 on: October 31, 2006, 09:54:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DYNAMITE
In reference to the Kerry gaff... well, to be honest I thought he was referring to Bush, not our men and women in uniform.

He (Kerry) had been speaking about Bush immediatly before the remark and immediatly after... oh well, in politics, perception is everything - and a quote taken out of context can kill a career (and an election).


Actually, you are PROBABLY right, but had a Repblican said it, it would be all over the NY Times and the Post, and not just Fox and bbs boards and talk radio

(btw, he and Bush got about the same grades:( )
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Offline VOR

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Kerry "Your educated and smart or your in Iraq"
« Reply #72 on: October 31, 2006, 09:58:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
I thought a bachelors degree was a requirement to be a commissioned officer in the armed forces?  How can only have of all officers  have one?  Are they counting NCO's in that total of "officers"?


It's not specifically required in all cases to achieve a commission, but there's usually a push to complete it soon after commissioning if not already done.

There's also battlefield commissioning, but to my knowledge that hasn't been done in years. (I have an uncle who went to Vietnam as a private and left as a Captain.) People just aren't dying off fast enough to justify it these days.

Back on topic: I think Kerry meant to say one thing but said another. Still, it would come as no surprise to hear someone say something along the lines of get educated or get drafted. My mom used to say similar things to me back in my slacking days.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2006, 10:00:54 PM by VOR »

Offline Charon

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Kerry "Your educated and smart or your in Iraq"
« Reply #73 on: October 31, 2006, 10:17:30 PM »
Quote
Someone mentioned selective service. If they meant that a draft of sorts would be beneficial I have to disagree. Ive talked to many old salts and they all agree that during Vietnam and for a short time after their Navy was in ruins do to the large numbers of personnel that either did drugs or had none of the qualities of a sailor (honor, courage, commitment). One vet made the analogy that it was like the Navy had a stroke of sorts. It took time to recover and weed out the problems, but overall it came back stronger and better. I personally would leave the military as soon as soon as possible knowing that I had to serve with others that had no respect toward their job or had none of the many reasons that servicemen and woman serve their country. Servicemen and women's lives are already dangerous and tasking enough without screwups adding to their problems.


There was a draft in place between 1948 and 1973 (not to mention 40-45). The Vietnam experience was part of that time period -- a limited part -- with plenty of issues all its own not directly related to the draft. The military was part of a society in general that went though the "Summer of Love" the Civil Rights movement and an increasingly unpopular war overseas. There was a lot of change in a short period of time between 1967 and 1973. I haven't checked the numbers, but I wonder if you could have even fielded a Volunteer Army during that period that would have kept manpower levels anywhere near adequate compared to the basic needs. Of course, that's also the case today which is why we now have all the stop loss in effect, the highly paid civilian "contractors," the multiple reserve and guard tours and the plummeting enlistment standards to keep the numbers in the ball park. Frankly, if I were part of the volunteer Army today, going on my second tour in Iraq as a reservist or stop-lossed grunt, I would imagine I might be wondering why others aren't being called to help shoulder this burden. When you can't shop your way to victory, perhaps it's time to put up or pull out.

The late Col. David Hackworth who lead and was extremely successful turning the draftee "Hopeless"  battalion into the highly successful "Hardcore" battalion in Vietnam (read Steel My Soldiers Hearts if you want to learn something about military leadership) had few problems with the draftee force. He was, in fact, far more critical of the career military of the time and failures like the 12-month rotation policy. This churned officers and NCOs which rapidly diluted experienced leadership very early in the war never to be fully recovered and removed the line soldiers once they were at their prime of experience. It also set an "X numbers of days and a wakeup" attitude that was counter productive. It created not only a heavily draftee force, but a "green" draftee force at virtually all levels in the field.

Hackworth proved that if properly led and motivated, draftees could achieve the same results as they did in WW2 and Korea (eventually) and through the bulk of the Cold War. Remember, draftees were what made the greatest generation great :) The draftees in fact provided a necessary counter to the careerists who let politics and advancement goals get in the way of mission too often -- they simply didn't have the career focus to put up with BS.

Today, the draft would expose people to others of different backgrounds, and to a higher cause and the service of a greater good. They would share a common experience. They would be future journalists, politicians, celebrities, teachers, college professors, athletes, corporate managers and others who have a place of influence in society but often a narrow world view and limited experience outside their own niche in society -- from elementary school to retirement. It would also give far more of the country some "skin in the game" for when we decide military action is justified. After all, if you support a war which might kill someone else's child, then you should be prepared to pay the ultimate cost yourself -- if it's actually worth it.

Charon
« Last Edit: October 31, 2006, 10:41:25 PM by Charon »

Offline Urchin

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Kerry "Your educated and smart or your in Iraq"
« Reply #74 on: October 31, 2006, 10:21:40 PM »
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Originally posted by indy007
Define success? I know a lot of people that make > $100k/yr. None of them have degrees. I'm even fortunate enough to be one of them. Hooray for autodidacts?


I guess it is possible you missed it, but there was this huge thing in the news just this past week I believe saying that a college degree was worth ~23,000 a year in income.  I imagine that means that the average gap between someone with a college degree and someone without is around 23k.  

23 thousand dollars is a nice chunk of change.  Actually my father is in your boat, he does not have a college degree, he enlisted in the Navy out of high school, then went to work for NSA, he is making about 100k a year now.  

God willing, when I get out of school this December and pass the first actuarial exam I'll start between 50-60k, and probably be making close to 100k in 3 or 4 years.  That is 3 or 4 years against the 30 years that my father has been working.

A college degree means a LOT of extra money, over a lifetime.  The military does have some extraordinary deals for education, I've looked into it.  I haven't even ruled out enlisting if I can't land a job right out of school (I'm up to my eyeballs in debt lol).  But for people to be expressing all this faux outrage at the nerve of Kerry to tell students to do well in school... it just strikes me as a "get out the vote" message to Republicans.

Face it - the days where you could come out of high school and make a comfortable living at a blue collar job are over.  If you don't have any education, you got a rough, low-income, no insurance life ahead of you.  A 4 year degree today is the high school diploma of yesteryear, and by the time my nephews are entering the workforce (in 18-20 years), I imagine a masters degree will be about standard.