Author Topic: Dealing with higher (faster) cons  (Read 559 times)

Offline 63tb

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Dealing with higher (faster) cons
« on: November 17, 2006, 02:24:04 PM »
Folks,

I have a question about how to engage higher, and usually faster, cons. First, I like the early war rides (especially the P-40B) but I like the challange of flying in LW. Many times I find myself with a con higher than me and it's usually a LW ride. So not only does it have alt on me, its also got power and speed. What I have been doing is keeping the con in view above me and start a shallow spiral climb. If he dives down, I try and break into him. Some times this works and they miss but often I get pasted. Is there a better tactic I could try (other than picking a better ride)?

thanks

63tb

Offline humble

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Dealing with higher (faster) cons
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2006, 02:45:40 PM »
Best thing to do is go to the TA....there are alot of options.

both the hog clips I just posted have B&Z defense....however since you mention the P40B there is a clip from awhile back that is a P40B vs a Nikki...I'll go get URL and repost it here....A P40 (or other EW plane can be a "wolf in sheeps clothing" if well flown. In this clip I draw the nikki in and he never gets out....tactic can be used with spitty, 109, P-38 or any other bogie....

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Offline Spatula

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Dealing with higher (faster) cons
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2006, 06:02:15 PM »
Higher cons are a fact of life, and you will come up against em at some point. Your options really are:
1. Avoid them. Seriously, high cons can present a tough challenge, to which you start on your back foot. Do you best not to engage them unless your ready to fight. You don't HAVE to fly towards them and engage them. Sometimes, they jump you and you have no choice, but a lot of the time you can avoid them. To decrease your chances of being jumped by a higher con, spend some time climbing a bit yourself if you anticipate higher cons in a particular area. Give yourself some space and time to climb in peace and ensure you're able to join the hot area under more favorable conditions.

2. If you're forced to fight or you can't resist the challenge and just love reversing the tables on alt-monkeys :D then what you need to do, is do everything you can to either engineer a killing snap-shot (easier to do with cannons than MGs) or attempt to even out the E disparity and then try fight a fairer fight with them or try for both.
Normally, if i spot a higher con who is keen on me, i will turn away from them and make them chase me for as much as possible. If you have alt, you can trade some of it to keep your speed high (just make sure you leave some to fight with). This will either take you to safety, or it the con will chase, in which case the will use up some E chasing you/diving on you. It also has the bonus effect of giving you some much-needed speed to maneuver more effectively with. Make them waste their E advantage.
To set up a killing snapshot, you have to get them in front of your guns, which involves either turning into them (either horizontally or vertically or combination of both) which will lead to a risky head-on shot, or force an overshoot which may present a brief snapshot opportunity, or perhaps a saddle-up chance. Even if the shot doesn't kill, its worth trying for it (espc the overshoot) as any damage can cause your opponent to panic or distract them for a moment which can be exploited.
Engineering the overshoot can be difficult and risky. you have a number of options from simple flat-scissors, a rolling scissors, or the more simple barrel-roll defense. Flat scissors is risky and wastes E, but can work if you cant fly the other moves. The easiest, and one of the safest is the barrel-roll defense. Simply put you fly a barrel-roll to compress your forward motion vector but retain speed. The key is engineering the speed differential. Too much and you wont have the snap-shot opportunity, too little and the bogey will just saddle up. My guess would be a differential of around 100 knots +- 30 sounds ok. Allow the bogey to attack from the rear quarter with the speed differential as above. At about D1.5, start a slight climbing gentle break turn to tempt the bogey into thinking they have an easy shot on you. They start to attempt to pull lead on you to get the shot. Start tightening up your break turn at around 900-1k, then at about 700-800 indicated (about when they will be pressing the fire button, don't forget net lag which adds 100-300 feet) commence your pull up and aileron roll back in the direction you broke from to enter a barrel-roll (say if you originally broke right, start your barrel-roll rolling to the left). You should now be performing a barrel-roll around the path of the bogey that is bouncing you and you should have avoided getting hit. The trick is to keep them in view as you roll (this is hard), and you have to try modify your barrel-roll so that you nose will cross the anticipated flight path of the now over-shooting bogey. When your nose gets to that point (and the bogey is yet to arrive by a split-second) squirt out some rounds and if you time it right they'll fly straight into it (and get the shock of their life).
see this film for an example:
http://www.my2cents.co.nz/AcesHigh/Films/barrellroll_defense.zip
(i actaully score a hit on the overshoot, then saddle up for the kill).

Another alternative is something i call the 'high-low overshoot'. The deal here is to try trick the bogey into a steep diving attack on you - eg from directly above or close to it. Critical here is tempting them into thinking they have the shot and easy kill when they don't, and the process of their greed blow it all. You have to get them into attacking you in a steep dive while you avoid by pulling up and again doing some sort of barrel-roll to orient yourself the follow-on snap-shot. They're going down (wasting E and faster than you to start with due to their dive on you) and only make it worse by not aborting their run at you, while your going up (slowing down but building E). They have gravity increasing their turn-radius, and gravity compressing yours - perfect.

Heres one (me in a P40E) and bandit in a FW190D-9 (a MUCH faster aircraft). The 190 attacks in a steep dive and the rest is history. I score pilot wound and he musta blacked out. Still a victory is a victory.
http://www.my2cents.co.nz/AcesHigh/Films/hi-low-overshoot.zip

This one i'm attack from my high 12oc position. The text has been removed, but the 205 is killed.
http://www.my2cents.co.nz/AcesHigh/Films/HiLow_Overshoot2.zip

Of course with the victories, you have to accept that you are at the disadvantage, and you will be fighting from your back foot, and a good pilot may not make mistakes you can capitalize on, and you end up dead instead.
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Offline Ghosth

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Dealing with higher (faster) cons
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2006, 06:02:32 PM »
Keep your speed up, any time he breaks down into you spit S down & under when he's 800 or so out. If he breaks off & goes back up, then climb till your airspeed is back down to 200. Basically you have to equalize E states which is very tough in a P40. Or setup a situation that lets you get a guns solution because he overshoots.

TA time & a good trainer is the best help, but you have to accept that flying a P40 vs late war planes IS going to get you killed.

Offline 63tb

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Dealing with higher (faster) cons
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2006, 06:38:28 PM »
Thanks for the tips!

Yeah I know that flying those old crates is asking for it but you gotta love the look of that P-40B!

Spatula - Thanks for the films. I will give them a look. I was trying to follow what you said with my hands but I think I sprained something! :)

I have led one or two into canyons where they promptly lawn-dart, but that's the exception.

Also one other thing I forgot to mention...I'm the worst shot ever! But that's another story. LoL

63tb

Offline Damionte

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Dealing with higher (faster) cons
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2006, 01:13:33 AM »
It's going to be tough for you to equalise E in thar plane. Most of the opponents oyu will find will naturally be faster than you. RUnning from them isn;t an option and you won't be gaining E on them by making them chase you.

I say you pick the fights you have a chance at winning and leave the planes you can't beat alone.

Run, but run to help and don't fly alone.
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Offline bozon

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Dealing with higher (faster) cons
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2006, 05:34:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Damionte
I say you pick the fights you have a chance at winning and leave the planes you can't beat alone.

Run, but run to help and don't fly alone.

I beg to differ - challenge EVERYTHING!

You'd be surprised  how many players can't handle their super-planes in more than a 500 mph pass'n'run. When you do kill them you can be proud that the pilot did it and not the plane.

In addition, now that we have 3 eras you can take your P40 to the early war or even mid war and not be outclassed to the point of ridicule.
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Offline Spatula

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Dealing with higher (faster) cons
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2006, 05:34:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Damionte
RUnning from them isn;t an option and you won't be gaining E on them by making them chase you.


No running isnt normally an option, your right, but theres no harm done making the bastige chase ya a bit. This works better if in a fast plane to start with like a mustang etc. My point was you don't always have to engage high cons as soon as you see em. You do have the opportunity to set up at least slightly more favourable conditions.
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Offline x0847Marine

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Re: Dealing with higher (faster) cons
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2006, 12:09:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 63tb
Folks,

I have a question about how to engage higher, and usually faster, cons. First, I like the early war rides (especially the P-40B) but I like the challange of flying in LW. Many times I find myself with a con higher than me and it's usually a LW ride. So not only does it have alt on me, its also got power and speed. What I have been doing is keeping the con in view above me and start a shallow spiral climb. If he dives down, I try and break into him. Some times this works and they miss but often I get pasted. Is there a better tactic I could try (other than picking a better ride)?

thanks

63tb


My favorite, play AFK, go in a straight line and let them boom in then hit the breaks about 1K pulling one way or another just enough for him to miss and overshoot. Hopefully by then hes blown most advantage by trying to match your speed, or you might even get off a good shot as he passes by.

Some dudes will keep speed well and BnZ a few times to see what you'll do, I'll usually do my best just to dodge em while doing what I can to get them lower & slower.

Offline BaldEagl

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Dealing with higher (faster) cons
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2006, 01:10:55 PM »
If you're near the deck get as low as you can and try to stay directly underneath him.  When he dives in if he's carrying speed, like they usually are, he'll lawn dart before he can pull up and you'll get the proxy kill.  

If altitudes are higher turn away from him and move into a shallow dive (shallow will temp him to chase).  If he comes after you keep making the dive steeper and steeper as long as you can.  As he closes to 1K either pull in any direction (to force him to give up E trying to follow) or cut throttle and roll slightly (looking for a shot on the overshoot).  No matter what you do he's going to try to maintain wing orientation with you so he doesn't lose you if you break but at speed he's going to have difficulty with this.  In all likelyhood he's going to miss on the first pass and have to zoom out to try again.  Repeat the proceedure until you've equalized E, then go have a good time but beware, if he knows what he's doing he'll cut throttle on the chase down and just saddle up on your six.  Even then you've at least equalized E and now it's a test of your ability to turn the tables on a plane glued to your 6.
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