Author Topic: Spit vs P38  (Read 1023 times)

Offline Phil

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Spit vs P38
« on: November 22, 2006, 11:51:26 PM »
Need all the help you can give....

Pilot skills: average pilot. I know the basic rules before engaging(light on fuel, best speed for turning radius, flaps....)

Scenario: 15k alt with Spit9/50%fuel/fresh ammo
Head on with P38. With respect, I don't go for HO shots. Lets fight with skills and maneovers etc...
My speed well over 400+. His speed I assume would be about the same.
Zooooom we go side by side. I looked behind and I want to keep my nose level/ bit downward to gain distance/speed before making my next move....
Now I pay attention to his distance 800yds and then 1000yds now he's banking hard and I'm still going approx 450-475mph in the opposite direction....
Next thing I see is him closing in:confused: 900yds-800yds-700yds
You know the rest of the story:cry

How the hell can a plane go by me when I'm doin' 400+, proceed with a hard turn or stall turn and then catch up when I'm divin' doing 475+:furious

For you P38 vets, can you give me some advice on WHAT I SHOULDN'T DO when encountering "you". Don't mind losing, but don't like being too easy. I want to have a GOOD SCRAP  :furious :rofl :cry

For those of you who shot me down, I'm not a quiter !
Give me time and I'LL BE BACK:rofl

Phil
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Offline Virage

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Spit vs P38
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2006, 12:35:19 AM »
Film your engagements and you will see what is happening.

1. He was probably faster than you at the merge.

2.  He turned early.
 
3.  You probably turned into him a bit to keep visual behind you.

4.  He only turned ~ 90 degrees ( maybe less) after the merge and still had enough speed to run you down.

To counter with disengaging in mind, pass as close to him as possible and make a slight turn away from him always keeping your tail pointed at him.

BUT...  you're in a  Spit MAN!  You should have been Early Turning him!  For beginners... go vertical just before merge and then Pull, Point and shoot.  It will work against all but the best.
JG11

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Offline Nomak

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Spit vs P38
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2006, 12:41:12 AM »
If you want real answers to this type of thing then you need to take and then post the film of the engaugement.

Without it everything is just speculation.

Dave

Offline SAS_KID

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Spit vs P38
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2006, 02:32:36 AM »
man how steep of a dive did you do to be going 400+MPH in a spit? with that type of altitude you could of dove on his 6. But of course best bet is to film it.
Quote from: hitech on Today at 09:27:26 AM
What utter and compete BS, quite frankly I should kick you off this bbs for this post.

The real truth is you do not like the answer.

HiTech

Offline Warspawn

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Spit vs P38
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2006, 02:37:45 AM »
Wouldn't a P-38 compress at those speeds?  Even if it somehow trimmed out enough to get some sort of control, the shaking of the airframe makes it really hard to set up any sort of gun solution...475 kts is mighty fast for a Lightning.
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Offline Phil

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Spit vs P38
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2006, 04:42:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SAS_KID
man how steep of a dive did you do to be going 400+MPH in a spit? with that type of altitude you could of dove on his 6. But of course best bet is to film it.


Don't think my thread mentions that I'm on his six.
Never dove on him:rolleyes:
On a level flight, Spit9 can easly make 400mph and with WEP putting the nose down a bit, you will make the 475+

Phil

Offline SuperDud

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Spit vs P38
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2006, 06:59:11 AM »
Sounds like the lead turn and/or merge is what got you. Like Nomak said, without film it's hard to say.
SuperDud
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Offline humble

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Spit vs P38
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2006, 10:04:05 AM »
Not much to add but here goes....

1) spit IX doesnt do 400mph level flight at any alt below 22k or so....speed at 15k is about 375 (about same as the P-38)

2) the 38 is heavier and will dive better (but also compresses much sooner)

So you werent going 400+ to start and you didnt get near 475 unless you were really diving and yes the 38's gonna catch you from that alt.

You also have a significant "discrepency" sp??.....if the two of you pass in the classic "planes level, guns cold" dueling merge {not the much more common dive for the dirt variety} then either you see him going up or out but he's out at 2 or 2.5 or 3. But you start him at 800 to 1000 and then say he's banking hard...not possible in a 38 going "475"....it wont even pull up at that speed. The elevator authority doesnt allow it....

My best guess is that you were going 380 or so (15k wep speed)....the con was actually higher and dove into the merge from vis range but was down to 15k or a bit less by the time you passed.....so he WAS going 450....he started to pull up from the under and by the time he got the speed down enough to gain full elevator authority your seeing him 1000 out. But he's in the vert pulling thru at 350-380 and now diving down on you from 18k....meanwhile your in a gentle dive. He'll run you down in no time....

I can tell you that your primary problem is pretty simple


I know the basic rules before engaging(light on fuel, best speed for turning radius, flaps....)

This is dead wrong...the basic rule for engaging is to be the aggressor. The single most famous quote in combat aviation sums it up "there are two types of planes, fighters and targets". Simply put you flew like a target (no disrepect intended)....

My speed well over 400+. His speed I assume would be about the same.  Me thinks you assumed wrong...

I looked behind and I want to keep my nose level/ bit downward to gain distance/speed before making my next move....

Which would be what?....you just merged at high speed blew thru the merge and watched him crawl up your oscar. You simply dont have the time to process a "dog fight" in this manner....you can fly in the MA and engage particpate and contribute to "the cause" but you cant be remotely competative in a 1 on 1 or small group engagement.

Which brings us to the other "most famous" quote in air combat. "Better a mig on my 6 then no mig at all".... I'll gladly give a 38 (or any plane for that matter) my 6. The guy who kills me from 1.2 out on my 6 is gonna kill me regardless (probably 80% of the time) {in a true 1 on 1}.....

If you havent spent time in the TA I highly encourage you to. You have the right attitude and a little knowledge and polish will take you a long way. I fly knight under "snaphook". Anytime you see me up feel free to tag along as an observer....

BTW if you search back thru a few pages you'll find two clips....one is a 109F vs 38G clip...the other a p40 vs nikki clip.

The 38 clip shows a full fight vs the 109....a couple of defensive reverses including one at 800 or so. If you listen to the vox you'll hear me telling a squaddie i'm fine (which I was).

I reverse planes in the MA all the time at 1.2 800 or even less. Any of the trainers will happly work with you to first assess your actual skill level, then build your fundemental understanding of dogfighting and then work on moving you from the target catagory to where you want to be....

Thats when the fun starts....when a guy in a fighter meets a target....and finds out he's dealing with another fighter. :aok

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Offline Damionte

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Spit vs P38
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2006, 11:03:19 AM »
Heya Phil,

Yeah from your discription it seems you just didn't do the right thing on the merge. I'm not sure who tought you to go into a shallow dive after the merge. It's just about the worst thing you can do in anything short of say a P51 which can out run just about anything.

Swing by the training room for the rest of the week. Look around for Kwuest. I'm very rarely not in a P38. If you see me just mention the thread and I'll be happy to fly with you.

I'm no master or ace but I know enough of the basics to get you going. I am experienced enough though, and can get you more familiar with fighting against the P38.
Drackson

Allied Commander: AvA / Campaign Series: North Africa / Italy

Offline Phil

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Thanks guys !!!
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2006, 05:08:47 PM »
I'm learning' the hard way !
I feel like a BIG CANDY for you enemy vets outhere:cry

Slowly with time, hopefully I will recognize my WRONG MANEOVERS and will TRADE for good ones !:aok

Your advice is well taken...:aok

I've started FILMING my scenarios.

SNAPHOOK thanks for your input. You seemed to v'been around for a while and gained lots of experience. I will keep your ID on my list and will look you up in the future....

I like SMART flying and don't want to rush into fights. I like to ASSESS the situation before engaging. I like to process the plane/info.(pro and con of the EA) Then I take action.
I do pay attention of my speed, I try to fight on the way up, I use flaps when wanting my nose up to give me a "snapshot"
Sometimes my ATTACKING and DEFENCE tactics are well thaught BUT when I applie them, it doesn''t turn out like I planned...:huh

Like you said, TIME will POLISH my flying skills and hopefully will give me better results !

THANKS EVERYONE :D

Phil
OPP7755

Offline humble

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Spit vs P38
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2006, 08:45:57 PM »
Just keep plugging away, by all means fly smart....but realize that almost all the "aces" preach aggression as the cornerstone of air combat. when in doubt attack even in the face of inferior odds or tactical position....

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline Ack-Ack

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Spit vs P38
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2006, 07:05:10 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
...not possible in a 38 going "475"....it wont even pull up at that speed. The elevator authority doesnt allow it....

 



You are incorrect.



ack-ack
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Offline Schatzi

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Re: Thanks guys !!!
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2006, 08:48:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Phil

Like you said, TIME will POLISH my flying skills and hopefully will give me better results !

THANKS EVERYONE :D

Phil
OPP7755



Get some quality time with a Trainer.... will make learning much more enjoyable and quicker then trial and error :).


trainers@hitechcreations.com



Schatzi
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Offline humble

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Spit vs P38
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2006, 09:50:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
You are incorrect.



ack-ack


I'm certainly not going to argue the 38 with you....

When I fly the 38 somewhere around 440 IAS (at my normal alts of 10-12k) it enters compression. Regardless of how much elevator I input it will hang in "the shudders" for a short time. Once the control surfaces unlock the plane has excellent evevator authority. At that point a 38 at high speed will scream thru a vertical reverse retaining alot of E.....which is what I was speculating about.

A good 38 driver will push the 38 right to that grey area then use the trim to fly the bird and pop it back out....I might have the speed of by a small margin at 15k but I dont think by much

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline BaldEagl

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Spit vs P38
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2006, 10:53:40 AM »
The main thing to remember no matter what you fly is to use your plane's strengths and exploit you opponent's weaknesses.

In level flight you and the P38 are close but you have a definite climb advantage and if the P38 pilot doesn't know how to properly use flaps a turn advantage.

If you intend to take up the fight with this guy then enter the merge off-set from head on so you can start your turn 6-800 out.  If that doesn't put you on his six try out-turning him but be careful because if he knows how to fly that plane with flaps he'll be able to get some nice snapshots on you.  Just feel it out.  The next thing to try is to loop.  If e-levels are close to start he won't be able to stay with you through multiple loops but again you have to be careful as he can make a really tight turn over the top with flaps.  Finally, go into a spiraling climb watching him out your rear quarter.  He won't be able to stay with this and as he loses e roll over on top of him to force him verticle and you'll get him hanging on his props.  This last move works against a lot of planes with a Spit.

Hope this helps.  Have fun.
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