which 109 came first?

[Flyboy]

anyone knows the operational dats of the G14 G10 and K4? i keep finding contradictions between different web pages.

heres from "wikipedia"
G14: "mid 44"
K4: october 44
G10: november 44

allso it doesnt seem to be a "standart" G10 or a G14.
what are the main differences between the varients? (including the K)

[Krusty]

Don't use wikipedia. Ever.

[Kweassa]

..moving right along..



 The sequence is correct, Flyboy.
 G-14 arrived first, then the K-4, and finally the G-10.

 To make a long story short, initially the Kufurst was planned on arriving much sooner. After the K-4s arrived all new production Gustavs were to be produced upto K-4 standards, equipped with a much more powerful DB605D engine the K-4s were also using. This new, "upgraded" line of Gs was to become the G-10.

 However, K-4 arrived late. In the mean time the LW couldn't just leave the G-6 variant as it was, since its introduction was already in 1943, and signs of being outdated were beginning to show. Therefore they kicked in a standardization project for the various late G-6s, equipped with a DB605A engine with methanol-water injection. This interrim project, was the G-14.

 So the G-14 was something of a temporary makeshift lineup of 109s while the LW waited for the K-4, and the subsequent G-10.. except the K-4 came late, so as a result the most abundant of 109s of 1944 became the G-14.

[Lusche]

Originally posted by Krusty
Don't use wikipedia. Ever.

nonsense.

Itīs like saying: Donīt use your lokal library, bacause the are some books with flawed facts.

If you had said "Donīt rely on wikipedia" I would have agreed.

[Krusty]

Okay, "don't trust what you read in Wikipedia, ever". Sorry, I chose my words poorly. Thank you Lusche.

Kweassa's got a good description of the G14/G10/K4 issue. Keep in mind, that in this number "G14" or "G10" there were different sub versions too with different engines. So the plane wasn't just stagnating for a year while they waited for the better models. They were improving it as time went on. (you probably knew this but just in case you didn't)

[gripen]

Difficult to say, I think there were some G-10s in Italy late summer 1944 (lots of trouble with the DB 605D). Otherwise it's difficult to see the difference between the G-6 and G-14.

gripen

[Bruno]

G14: "mid 44"
K4: october 44
G10: november 44

The G-14 entered service with with II./JG 11 and Stab./JG 53 in July 1944.

The G-10 entered service in October but will get back to you with specific units. I can't seem to locate my notes.

The K-4 entered service with III. /JG 4, Stab./JG 27 I./JG 27 II./JG 27, III./JG 27, IV./JG 27 and II./JG 77 in October 1944. (see: Prien & Rodeike, H. Valtonen)

allso it doesnt seem to be a "standart" G10 or a G14.
what are the main differences between the varients? (including the K)

The G-14 is basically  a G-6 with MW-50. The G-14 is official name of the G-6/MW- 0 designation which was used internally by Mtt for the G-6 equipped with the MW-50 system previously used on the recce G-6/R2 variant. The G-14 was the evolution of G-6 with DB605AM with MW-50. The G-14 will be a bit heavier then the G-6 and without WEP (AH term) will be only a few mph faster then the G-6. FTH for the G-14 is 16400FT.

(* the G-6/R2 entered service in April/May 1944 w/ elements of JG 1, JG 5 and JG 11)

The G-10 was the evolution of G-6 coupled with DB605D and MW-50 and supercharger of the DB603. The G-10 was to be an interim aircraft while the K-4 came online. However, problems with the DB605D lead to both the K-4 and G-10 entering service about the same time. Some sources say the G-10 was 'made from old G-6 airframes' but this isn't necessarily correct. It is true some of the first airframes used for the G-10 were from G-6 as they were available, or from airframes planned for mounting the DB605AM (G-14) in case no DB605AM were available. This is why the twin data plate can be found on some G-10s. Some G-10s were fitted with the cowling from the G-6/As / G-14/AS leading to the confusing designation G-10/AS found in some sources.

Other notes =

Bf 109G-6/AS entered service in May 1944 w/ elements JG 1, JG 3, JG 5 and JG 11

Bf 109G-14/AS entered service in August 1944 w/ elements of II/JG 27 and I/JG 77.

[Flyboy]

thanks guys.
so the timeline goes:

109g6as
109g14
109g10 \ 109k4

anybody have performence data between those 4 varients.
basicly the 109g14 and the 109g6as are the same
and the 109k4 and 109g10 are the same.

[Krusty]

Welll...... yes and no... I think the AS engines showed up at about the same time on G6s and G14s. It goes

G6
G14
G6AS/G14AS
G10/K4

I think

[wrag]

Here ya go...........

http://www.adlertag.de/mainindex.htm

Has the g10, h14, k4 listed.

Also has figures.

[Reynolds]

Bf-109G specifically:

The UBER Bf-109 page

Probably interesting if you speak German, which sadly I dont

A good but VERY technical page

Interesting but not terribly useful page

There, those are all of the good pages I have on Bf-109 data. Unfortunately, I dont have the most complete library, but I think that will be of great help to you! (P.S. If you want sites with lots of pretty pictures, I have those too;))

[Knegel]

Originally posted by Flyboy
thanks guys.
so the timeline goes:

109g6as
109g14
109g10 \ 109k4

anybody have performence data between those 4 varients.
basicly the 109g14 and the 109g6as are the same
and the 109k4 and 109g10 are the same.

Hi,

G14 and G6AS wasnt the same!!!

The AS dont had MW50, it was the high altitude version of the DB605A. Its had less power at sea level, about the same in 3000m, less power in around 6000m, but did shine above 7000m, where the DB605A lost much power.

The G14 had the DB605AM, which was very good at low and medium altitude, but above rated altitude it was a simple DB605A in a more heavy plane(mainly due to the MW50 system).
The G14AS had a DB605ASM, so a AS with MW50, it had more power in high alt then the DB605DM, but not as much in medium altitude.

The G10 and K4 was pretty similar, if both had the same engine. The K4 was more heavy, due to more MW50, the more heavy 30mm(though the G10 also could have it) and some other parts like wheel cover.
So i would expect the G10 as better climbing plane, while the K4 was probably a bit faster, cause the wheel cover and the retractable tail wheel.
The differents probably was smal.
They also did test different propellers, which also would make a different.

So the sequence is:

G6 (1943)
G6AS (May 44)
G6/R2 (May 44)
G14 (July 44)
G14AS (August 44)
K4/G10 (October 44)

Greetings,

Knegel

[Bruno]

What Knegel said but also the K-4 was a new airframe where by the G-10  was basically coupling the DB605D to the typical BF 109G-6 airframe - with new cowling to cover the larger DB603 supercharger.

Development Map:

109G-6 (DB605A) ---> 109G-6/R2 (DB605AM - M = MW-50)---> 109G-14

109G-6 (DB605A) ---> 109G-6/AS (DB605 with DB603 SC) ---> 109G-14/AS (DB605AM - M =MW-50 with DB603 SC)

109G-6 (DB605A) ---> 109G-10 (DB605DM - M =MW-50 with DB 603 SC)

109K-4 (DB605D M - M =MW-50 with DB603 SC) ---> new variant

The two most produced variants of the Bf 109 were the G-6 (around 12000) and G-14 around 5000).

Performance varied greatly. The G-6 and G-14 would perform almost identically (G-14 might be slightly faster) above the FTH of G-14 (FTH= full throttle height = 16400ft for the G-14). The G-14 would be faster on WEP (WEP = AH term meaning with MW-50 activated).

The G-6/AS and G-14/AS would be close with the advantage to the G-14 with MW-50 at lower levels and the G-6/AS slightly faster up high.

The G-10 and K-4 would be similar for the reason's Knegel mentioned.

In AH they are missing an /AS version that would give better performance at altitude for the upcoming 8th AF theater in the Combat Tour arena. The K-4 in AH2 hits around 453 mph at FTH and it more representative of the K-4 with C-3 fuel running 1.98 ATA. This would push the AH2 K-4s service date into '45.

Between the G-14 and the K-4 there's a real gap. IMHO it would have been better to add the K-4 and keep the G-10 with an FM adjustment to bring its [G-10] top speed at FTH to about 425 - 428 mph. It could have then stood in for the G-6/AS and/or G-14/AS.

[Flyboy]

hi bruno. how come you claim the K4 hits 453 and the G10 only around 425 at FTH (i assume its the same alt since its the same engine).
does the G10 runs on regular (B4?) fuel and the K on the C3?

one more thing, the MW50 just cools the engine enabling to run at higher pressure right? so basicly running at full power with MW50 on the FTH is lower then a FTH without the MW50,and at certein altitude the G14 and G6 will have the same power output?

one last thing where there any 109G6as with MW50?

[wrag]

Originally posted by Bruno
What Knegel said but also the K-4 was a new airframe where by the G-10  was basically coupling the DB605D to the typical BF 109G-6 airframe - with new cowling to cover the larger DB603 supercharger.

Development Map:

109G-6 (DB605A) ---> 109G-6/R2 (DB605AM - M = MW-50)---> 109G-14

109G-6 (DB605A) ---> 109G-6/AS (DB605 with DB603 SC) ---> 109G-14/AS (DB605AM - M =MW-50 with DB603 SC)

109G-6 (DB605A) ---> 109G-10 (DB605DM - M =MW-50 with DB 603 SC)

109K-4 (DB605D M - M =MW-50 with DB603 SC) ---> new variant

The two most produced variants of the Bf 109 were the G-6 (around 12000) and G-14 around 5000).

Performance varied greatly. The G-6 and G-14 would perform almost identically (G-14 might be slightly faster) above the FTH of G-14 (FTH= full throttle height = 16400ft for the G-14). The G-14 would be faster on WEP (WEP = AH term meaning with MW-50 activated).

The G-6/AS and G-14/AS would be close with the advantage to the G-14 with MW-50 at lower levels and the G-6/AS slightly faster up high.

The G-10 and K-4 would be similar for the reason's Knegel mentioned.

In AH they are missing an /AS version that would give better performance at altitude for the upcoming 8th AF theater in the Combat Tour arena. The K-4 in AH2 hits around 453 mph at FTH and it more representative of the K-4 with C-3 fuel running 1.98 ATA. This would push the AH2 K-4s service date into '45.

Between the G-14 and the K-4 there's a real gap. IMHO it would have been better to add the K-4 and keep the G-10 with an FM adjustment to bring its [G-10] top speed at FTH to about 425 - 428 mph. It could have then stood in for the G-6/AS and/or G-14/AS.

Did you see the thread where I requested the G10 be brought back?  And I said there was a hole in the LW aircraft without it?

Even had many claim that the G14 and the G10 were the same plane.

I got pretty much flamed for saying much of what is said here.  Yet I see others noticing the differences between the G10 and G14.

IMHO the G14 is more of a ground support aircraft and several others agree.  I've even seen reports of the G14's on some occasions actually carrying 2 under wing gondalos per wing!!! giving it 5 20mm cannons for ground support.

The G14 is reported as having a top speed of 408 mph at 16,500.  I can't get our G14 to do better then about 395 at that alt on wep.

IMHO the LW is gonna get RIPPEd to shreads in CT.  The F4 has had the gondalos removed, even though it was reported many F4s were equiped with them in the field during the 1st few months of the 8ths airforces bombing of Germany.

The 109 was called DEADLY for a REASON.  The 190 was called the BUTCHER bird for a REASON.  IMHO the AH 190s are pretty much on the mark.  BUT the 109s are OFF.

The 30mm accuracy in AH may be RIGHT on. BUT IMHO without the G10 and it's possible 3 20mm or 1 30mm and 2 gonds it's gonna be tuff on the LW.

Also the LW ammo is pretty WEAK IMHO.  The mine shells appear to be NOT in the ammo loadout?

Down rudder IMHO does NOT give proper effect in the 109s of AHII.

PART of the reason the allies did so well against the LW was NUMBERS.  Even with those numbers many allied aircraft didn't RTB.

Not sure I want to even fly in CT either as allied or LW if it's going to be like I suspect.

Oh well.......................  HT may be reading and may be listening.................... ..

all this is just my opinion anyways................

We shall see.