What do you think about this quote?

[storch]

heh when told by the persian emissary that the persian archers would darken the sky with their arrows king leonaiedes reportedly responded "good we will fight in the shade then"  when the emissary said for the spartans to turn over their weapons king leonaiedes responded "come and take them"  remarkable stuff.  the repository of that type of courage is in the english and american people today, you fluffy euro.  

[Viking]

Well the English are Europeans and so was King Leonaiedes and the Spartans you bloody colonial!

[Warspawn]

The actions of the Dutch soldiers are unforgivable.

They had a sword duty to protect those who were unable to protect themselves.

That doesn't mean abandoning your oaths because of fears for personal safety.  That means doing everything up to and including the sacrifice of your own life to protect those you are honor-bound to shield.

Arguments trying to protect or excuse these soldiers' actions bring to mind arugments for pardoning the actions of SS soldiers in WWII vs. unarmed civilians, captured pow's and camp inmates.  Testamony by witnesses/victims point towards willing participation by the Dutch "peacekeepers".  This would place them as accessories to the crimes.

They abandoned those they were sworn to protect.  They dishonored themselves and their uniform.  They were faithless in the performance of their duty.

Anyone doubting this is delusional and has never served in any kind of military or police organization where this choice is always a possibility:  your safety or the safety of those you are bound to protect.  I know I would rather lay down my life in the peformance of my duty rather than assist in the dishonor and cowardess that the Dutch soldiers showed on that day, and live with it for years later.  Everyone dies.  Few people get to do it for a cause or service they believe in and cherish.

What did that guy say in Serenity?  Something about "in an earlier...some would say, more civilized society, one who has failed as completely as you have would be given a sword to fall upon..."

*Edit* ah, here it is:
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Operative: You know, in certain older civilized cultures, when men failed as entirely as you have, they would throw themselves on their swords.

[Viking]

So when the American soldiers surrendered the Philipines to the horrors of Japanese occupation they "abandoned those they were sworn to protect. They dishonored themselves and their uniform. They were faithless in the performance of their duty."?

Clearly you know not what you speak of.

[Warspawn]

ah, you mean the ones on Bataan that fought beside the Phillipino soldiers until they were out of food and ammunition, many of them dead from disease and malnutrition, who were then forced to march to prison camps hundreds of miles away without water or rest.  Who were bayonetted by the Japanese if they paused to help a comrade or fell unconscious into the ditch as they trudged along?

Or the ones who returned to free the islands later on, who left thousands upon thousands dead upon the beaches that they battled upon on the road to liberate the Phillipines?

If these Dutch soldiers would have fought valiantly, then surrendered when they were out of food and ammo, the story would have been different, don't you think?

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by cpxxx
The Serbs knew quite well that a direct attack on a UN contingent would have brought down a world of hurt on them.  The Serbs bluffed and won.

No, the Serbs knew that the U.N. would not do a thing from previous encounters with the U.N.  The Serbs had been using the white vehicles of the U.N. forces as target practice for awhile before Sebrenica.


ack-ack

[Viking]

Originally posted by Warspawn
ah, you mean the ones on Bataan that fought beside the Phillipino soldiers until they were out of food and ammunition, many of them dead from disease and malnutrition, who were then forced to march to prison camps hundreds of miles away without water or rest.  Who were bayonetted by the Japanese if they paused to help a comrade or fell unconscious into the ditch as they trudged along?

Or the ones who returned to free the islands later on, who left thousands upon thousands dead upon the beaches that they battled upon on the road to liberate the Phillipines?

Yes, you seem to think they should all have died rather than retreated off the island. Your glorification of the "last stand" is typical of people who have never faced an enemy on the battlefield. History is filled with countless incidents where soldiers have surrendered civilians to a brutal enemy when the fight was hopeless. The creed of true soldiers is "live to fight another day", not "die gloriously to save no one". You dishonor them all with your simpleton antics.

[Warspawn]

They didn't retreat.  They surrendered when they could no longer fight.  It wasn't an island.  That was Corregidor, which fought on.  It was a peninsula.  Hence, the phrase "Bataan Peninsula".  Hard to do a death march off an island.  Well, the first couple of miles could be done I guess.


Prisoners on a burial detail at Camp O'Donnell

?


About 10,000 perished while others were able to escape; approximately 54,000 reached Camp O'Donnell. The problems persisted there. On June 6, 1942 the Filipino soldiers were granted amnesty and released, while the American prisoners were moved to another camp at Cabanatuan. Many of the survivors were later sent to prison camps in Japan, Korea, and Manchuria in prisoner transports known as "Hell Ships." The 500 POWs who still resided at the Cabanatuan Prison Camp were freed in January 1945 in the The Great Raid.

Every year, the captured soldiers are honored on Araw ng Kagitingan ("Day of Valor") (9 April), also known as the "Bataan Day", which is a Philippine national holiday. There is a shrine in Bataan commemorating this event. In Capas, Tarlac there is also the Capas National Shrine built in the grounds surrounding Camp O'Donnell.


You sir, need both history lessons and an in-depth tutorial in humanity and honor.  But continue on with your misguided opinions about how US soldiers fighting and dying in the Phillipines compares to Dutch soldiers helping Serbs load up Muslims on buses to be slaughtered.

I'm sure the Muslim survivors have some sort of national holiday celebrating the defense of their civilian friends and family by the Dutch soldiers?

Where are you from, anyways, to have such a shoddy education?

Please read about the battle here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bataan


Then tell me where I can read of the battle to protect the helpless thousands who died in the care of the UN Peacekeepers.

[Warspawn]

Originally posted by Viking
Your glorification of the "last stand" is typical of people who have never faced an enemy on the battlefield.

By the way.  Not that it's any of your business, but I have the CIB (combat infantryman's badge with some nifty stars over it.  Know what that means?), Purple Heart, and an ArCom I received during armed conflict.  I was with the 1/508th, C Company, 82nd ABN at Ft. Bragg, NC.  I was in combat in Grenada, Panama, and the first Gulf War.

I am currently receiving 40% disability after being honorably discharged from the US Army.  Well over a decade of faithful service to my country and those I was sworn to protect.

If you would like to see my DD 214 I can scan that and send it to you.

Please continue.

[Viking]

You sir are a hypocrite. You’d want the Dutch to die in a hopeless battle while you praise those that fled or surrendered in the Philipines. If the Dutch had fought to say 300 dead leaving 50 left to surrender would that have satisfied your twisted and archaic sense of honor?


I am from Norway ... and I fought in Bosnia at the time of the very incident we are discussing and I have killed in the name of peace. I was on the line at Tusla. We held Tusla.

Your accusations against the Dutch soldiers are false and disgraceful. I can no more believe the Dutch would aid in genocide than I can believe the Americans would.

[Warspawn]

Tuzla was quite a battle!

Salt mining town; the miners ended up using explosives they were familiar with handling against the troops that attacked them, if I remember correctly.

Why did you fight in that battle?  It wasn't your home, or your people.  The people of Tuzla were outnumbered and attacked by a professional army supported by artillery.  Seems pretty hopeless to me.  Why didn't you and your comrades lay down their arms and let the town be destroyed?

Are you proud that you stood the line and did your duty?

You should be.

Are you confused and angry when others don't?

Again.  You should be.

[Viking]

Our fight was never hopeless. Alone we had a battalion, and in addition we had support elements from the Swedes, Danes, Jordanians, Pakistanis, Canadians and air support from NATO. Most of our battles were artillery duels, but there were frequent skirmishes. The BiH militia bore the brunt of the fighting. We were supposed to be neutral although it was hard to be under the circumstances. There were times where we considered abandoning Tusla, but it never came to that.

Karremans were supposed to have a battalion too, but UN and Dutch bureaucracy and inaction left him with less than a company in strength with no heavy weapons or armor. They denied him air support and the nearest friendly units were hours away and ordered to stay put. Karremans played for time and won some, but when push came to shove the UN chose to waste his efforts and do nothing. At this point the Dutch were isolated, out of fuel for the few vehicles they had and dangerously low on food and supplies. Karremans and his men were out of options.

Like I said: Once I was angry and disgusted too … out of ignorance. The Dutch did what they could. All they could do more was to die futilely. If you don’t accept that, then so be it. I can say nothing more to convince you.

[Warspawn]

Yep.  Difference of opinion here, neither will be swayed by the other.  Dangerously low on supplies means little to me in this case.  Not a round was fired.  Not a single soldier offered resistance when the ones he was charged with protecting were killed.  They even permitted their uniforms to be taken and used by Serbians so that the civilians could be loaded upon the buses taken to the execution site without fuss.

Unforgivable.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Viking
Yes, an excellent example of glorious self sacrifice you Americans like so much. How brave of you to call them cowards from the comforts of your home. You’re the coward sir.

I served, sir. 7 years, voluntary enlistment, joined during the VietNam war.

As to it being an excellent example, it is indeed. It is even allegorical, from my point of view.

The Spartans and the Thespians sacrificed themselves against impossible odds to block the only invasion route the Persians could use.

They delayed the Persian advance long enough for the main body of the Greek army to escape and caused enormous casualties on the Persian side; modern estimates are 20,000 Persian losses.

The self-sacrifice at Thermopylae made the victory at Salamis possible. Salamis is widely considered a turning point in the history of Western Civilization.

So, indeed, it was a glorious sacrifice with results well worth the price.

As has been pointed out above, had the Dutch at Sebrenica had the courage of the Spartans, that too would have been a turning point in the history of Western Civilization and could have finally made the UN a relevant force in the world.

However, their inability to put anything above self...so common, imo, in Euros like yourself... doomed 8000 innocents to genocide. Genocide in which the Dutch assisted in the separation of the victims from the crowd as we have seen.

It also continued the abysmal record of the UN in protecting the innocent and the UN's continued slide into irrelevance.
 
The Spartan's epitaph was

Go tell the Spartans, stranger passing by,
that here, obedient to their laws, we lie

Too bad the Dutch will never earn such an epitaph.

Their shame will live forever, a stark counterpoint to the honor of the Spartans and Thespians.

[Viking]

Karremans or his men never witnessed the massacre. They had no idea it would happen. The BSA had guaranteed the civilians safety in a written statement to the UN claiming they were only after the BiH militia that the UN admittedly failed to completely disarm. Karremans were ordered to hand over Srebrenica to the BSA.

This is my final post on this subject.