Author Topic: Tactics: when enemy doesnt immel  (Read 1393 times)

Offline Simaril

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5149
Tactics: when enemy doesnt immel
« on: January 17, 2007, 07:04:07 PM »
I seem to be making a tactical error consistently, and I'm not quite sure what to do to change it. (With my new determination to film the good stuff, I expected to have a film to post to show this -- but for some reason I just havent run into it lately, so I'll describe it as best I can.)

Many times when co-E merging, I'll enter the "standard" Immel and be pleased to see my enemy start swoop down underneath me. When I see him below through my canopy top, I figure I should have it in the bag....but it doesnt always work that way.

I think this is where I mess up. I have tended to stay high, not completing the loop and not committing to a second Immel (alone, since the other guy is way below). I have tended to relax the curve, waiting for him to blow out his E and expecting to drop on him when he cant quite reach my alt. Unfortunately, the less educated enemy doesnt always know that he should have already lost the fight, and sometimes he gets a good shot by zooming straight up at me.


I think I should be doing one of two things:

Idea 1: Keep working the angles hard, even if that costs potential energy. I'm thinking I should continue the hard loop. coming down from the top in a tighter curve than the faster lower enemy can manage, When he comes back up, he should be in front of me and I should at least get a snap shot, if not a tracking 6 shot by pulling up behind him. (If I have the energy, that is.) From the side, my track would look like 3/4 of a loop, then there would be a 180 degree airelon roll to level and either the track shot or snap shot as the opponent heads vertical in front of me.



Idea 2: GO ahead and do the second textbook Immel, giving me a larger separation and potential energy store. This way I have the flexibility to respond to his "non textbook" maneuvering, whatever he may do, since I will be far above him, and the directional reversal will make my flight path far enough from his to deny the zoom shot. I'm thinking this would work almost like a rope, when he reaches the top of his maneuver and finds he can't get the angle for the shot.


What do the aces think?
Maturity is knowing that I've been an idiot in the past.
Wisdom is realizing I will be an idiot in the future.
Common sense is trying to not be an idiot right now

"Social Fads are for sheeple." - Meatwad

Offline Benny Moore

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1439
Tactics: when enemy doesnt immel
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2007, 07:26:11 PM »
I often use a combat turn instead of a second Immelmann, because a combat turn is harder for a floundering sky-gazer to track than a straight maneuver.  If you've got enough energy, a spiral climb is best.  That's my two bits.

Offline Spatula

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1486
Re: Tactics: when enemy doesnt immel
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2007, 07:38:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
Many times when co-E merging, I'll enter the "standard" Immel and be pleased to see my enemy start swoop down underneath me. When I see him below through my canopy top, I figure I should have it in the bag.


So, you merge co-E more or less head on, you immelman over (a 1/2 loop) and are now level and have reversed 180deg in direction, right? This is a fairly high-G immel?? eg were you going for the lead-turn and/or angles fight? Or a more lazy immel, with lower Gs going for the more conservative energy style opener?
Meanwhile your opponent has effectively blown through?? Im not sure what you mean by "my enemy start swoop down underneath me." I take from this your opponent didnt immel at all, and has blown through not wanting to play the classic opening move. Is this right?

Quote
Originally posted by Simaril

I think this is where I mess up. I have tended to stay high, not completing the loop and not committing to a second Immel (alone, since the other guy is way below). I have tended to relax the curve, waiting for him to blow out his E and expecting to drop on him when he cant quite reach my alt.


But now you say you dont complete the loop? do you mean you dont complete the first immelman (eg it becomes a a simple climb or some kind of pitch-back)?? Or do you mean you dont start the follow-on 2nd immel??

I'm just not sure what your situation is.
Airborne Kitchen Utensil Assault Group

Offline trotter

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 817
Re: Tactics: when enemy doesnt immel
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2007, 07:39:34 PM »
Your 'Idea #2' is what I do in that situation almost every time. The second immel doesn't always put you in the best offensive position against such a foe, but it puts you in a good defensive position. It affords you time to re-evaluate, maybe to watch him a little longer and figure out if he's a newb, or doesn't want to engage, or is baiting you lower. Also, if he really is intent on the zoom climb for that one shot, the second immel will foil that completely, leaving him as an easy target.

Offline Benny Moore

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1439
Tactics: when enemy doesnt immel
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2007, 08:12:25 PM »
The problem with an Immelmann, when there's a good chance that your enemy will be able to point his nose at you, is that it's a two dimensional maneuver.  It's very easy to track.  If he might be able to point his nose at you, it's probably better to move in all three dimensions.

Offline humble

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6434
It's actually pretty compicated....
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2007, 08:24:19 PM »
A great example is Creton who traditionally fly's some variation of a chandelle opener (my understanding is nomak is similiar). most good pilots have a variety of "openers". A number of variables come into play here. What is the plane match up, what is the relative E state etc....

As a general rule "higher is better" once you commit to an "E" opener. However, you need to have a plane "B" just in case. Mine is pretty simple....I convert to a climbing spiral which then levels into a flat 1/2 circle or so and then to a vertical "loop" that realistically is a chandelle I just fall out of....the key is creating a tough shot. The spiral climb forces him to commit his nose (vs a straight zoom) and the flat turn widens this...the final vertical is really a combination defensive move/reverse. Unless the con just totally snookered me I'll roll over on him....i

The reality is that a guy with alot of E in a good "zoomer" can just flat out suprise you. when I see those "funny" merges I know it'll break one of two ways....really really inexperienced or ace of aces:)

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline B@tfinkV

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5751
Tactics: when enemy doesnt immel
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2007, 08:54:21 PM »
i know exactly what you mean sim, when you are floating upon a high reversal turn and are thinking 'yep hes gunna fly right through my guns'.

then you realise too late that he has tightened his turn enough to come back up guns on.



first of all we need to make sure we lose enough speed and keep our turn tight enough not to become the target.



when you do realise that you have misjudged the relative speeds of you and your enemy, the best option is to roll out 90* and give as slim a profile for the shot as possible and, if you survive, continue the roll back to level flight beneath your opponent.

if you play your cards right from then on it is a battle of slowing down in the rolling style 'my-shot-your-shot-my-shot-your-shot' high and low passes.
 400 yrds on my tail, right where i want you... [/size]

Offline Mace2004

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1528
      • TrackIR 4.0
Tactics: when enemy doesnt immel
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2007, 12:59:16 AM »
As someone else said it's difficult to have the "correct" answer because it's not perfectly clear what your opponent is doing and there is a big difference depending on what he's flying.  For the sake of argument lets assume you're co-e with similar airplanes.

If, by your description, you mean that he entered a more level turn vice the vertical opening there are two potential situations.  1) the guy doesn't understand the vertical move and is a grape ready for picking OR 2) the guy is maintaining his e with only a slight nose high turn waiting for you to dive in for the munchies.  

To determine if the guys' a grape look at how quickly his nose is tracking across the ground.  By this I mean look to see if he's got a lot of turn rate, if so he's generating a lot of useless angles and he's really just burning his e and won't be able to do any significant zoom.  In this case simply convert to his six for an easy snack.  

So, lets say you look at your opponent and instead of generating a lot of angles he's staying fast and only has a moderate turn rate.  This tells you he probably knows what's what.  Another variation of this is he initially does a nose-high oblique turn after the merge and then does a wingover to put himself underneath you.  The oblique lets him slow a little and reduce his turn radius and increase his turn rate so he can point to a position underneath you.  Completing the wingover means he can now re-accelerate in preparation for his zoom into you.  

In either case you've got to quickly decide whether to go up or down.  If you go down he's watching for you to commit and bury your nose and come screaming straight down thinking you'll just blow him away or work the B&Z on him.  He has two options at this time depending on your relative positions.  

If you're in front of his wingline he'll probably pull up directly into you for a vertical merge.  In this situation you're buried nose low and he's counting on you being fast.  After the merge he'll be decelerating and you'll be yanking on the stick trying to get your nose moving uphill.  A quick pivot and rudder reversal on his part will get him turned around but he probably won't follow you with pure pursuit, instead he'll use lead pursuit to cut across your turn circle and pick you off as you come up in front of him.

So, what happens if you're behind his wingline?  He'll still count on your being too fast to square the corner to get on his six so he'll go vertical in front of you but before you get in guns range.  This will put him safely inside of your turn circle and, once you overshoot he'll pivot and rudder over.  In this case he'll actually have a lot of angles on you and be close enough to go directly to pure pursuit as you either dive away or continue your pull into the vertical.

OK, how do you cope with this.  First, you could play it safe and immediately do another immellman or, if you have insufficient e then do a spiral climb as Humble describes.  By doing that, you're maintaining separation and possibly setting up the rope.  The spiral also makes him maneuver on his zoom climb causing  him to bleed.  The downside to going up (oxymoron?) is that you're not keeping pressure on him, you're counting on him making a mistake and overall this may not work to your advantage as he gets more time to live and the possibility of a successful bug.  

If you want to stay aggressive against this type of opponent then going nose-low is the way you want to fight but remember you have two or three tricks.  The keys here are 1) don't bury your nose, and 2) control your speed.  To do this don't just continue your loop and dive straight down, instead roll into a descending oblique turn towards his control zone.  Remember that he's maintaining his e but it's going to cost him angles.  Also, your spiral means he has to turn harder to stay under you for his vertical move which will help to bleed him a little.  Using your slower speed means you have a smaller radius relative to his and can work towards his six.  Also, by coming down on him in an oblique turn trick number 1 is built in, use g in the turn to control your acceleration. Your second trick is to slip the plane.  Put in a lot of rudder opposite your turn and use aileron to control your bank angle to maintain the turn in the right direction. Trick number 3 only really works in the F4U but drop your gear or use dive brakes if you've got them.  Remember as you do this you want to control, not eliminate your e.  He's still fast so you'll need just the right amount of e to engage him in a close fight without letting him zoom well above you.

OK, you've got your descent under control, where do you go?  You need to be converting on his high six.  Now, this is what makes this fight difficult, it's the three bears and too hot, too cold and just right.  It's hard to be more specific but you want to stay a bit above him (i.e., don't overshoot in the vertical) but not too high.  Too high gives him separation and he can still generate a 90 degree pass with his e.   By being in the correct position you should be able to take your choice when he goes vertical, either lag him so you can get a shot when he's above you or lead him and shoot him on the way up.  The choice of which depends on the separation you have when he goes vertical.  Lots of separation and you want to lead him, little separation then lag him.  The point here is to make sure that you don't lag him enough that it gives him the overshoot he's looking for.

Mace
« Last Edit: January 18, 2007, 01:06:31 AM by Mace2004 »
Mace
Golden Gryphon Guild Mercenary Force G3-MF

                                                                                          

Offline Gumbeau

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 164
Tactics: when enemy doesnt immel
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2007, 09:17:26 AM »
If you begin a vertical lead turn at the merge in an essentially equal energy situation and you are above the bandit when initiating, all the bandit has to do is match your vertical lead turn and he will have rear quarter position.

Whether or not that rear quarter position that you have given the bandit will translate into a shot for the bandit is dependent upon several factors.

Offline Mace2004

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1528
      • TrackIR 4.0
Tactics: when enemy doesnt immel
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2007, 09:56:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gumbeau
If you begin a vertical lead turn at the merge in an essentially equal energy situation and you are above the bandit when initiating, all the bandit has to do is match your vertical lead turn and he will have rear quarter position.

Whether or not that rear quarter position that you have given the bandit will translate into a shot for the bandit is dependent upon several factors.


If you're already above your opponent and you pull up for a "lead turn" you're not doing a lead turn you've just effectively turned your six to him.  A lead turn is a turn into the opponent before the merge occurs and the goal is to gain angles before he begins to turn himself.  The reason a bandit gains a rear quarter position in your scenario here is that you've just turned in front of him and put him behind your wingline.

Mace
Mace
Golden Gryphon Guild Mercenary Force G3-MF

                                                                                          

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Tactics: when enemy doesnt immel
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2007, 11:19:43 AM »
Meh, I just wing it. I make it up as I go along.

Here's a question that might clarify what you want to do, though:

You've already done an immelman. You're well above him. You even admit he's lost the fight. You're in the better position. Why are you doing another immelman? You're taking yourself further from your objective (the destruction of the enemy). Perhaps some other move after immel #1 that puts you back on the enemy would be more suitable.

Even you said it, immel#2 puts you in a great defensive position --- only you're on the offense, have the better position and more energy. Why are you pulling defensive manuvers?

Offline x0847Marine

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1412
Tactics: when enemy doesnt immel
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2007, 11:51:16 AM »
Whats an "immel"?

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Tactics: when enemy doesnt immel
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2007, 12:09:42 PM »
It's the "I-don't-want-to-type-the-entire-damn-word" version of it. It's quite obvious what I meant, though.

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Tactics: when enemy doesnt immel
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2007, 02:44:14 PM »
For a mediocre pilot's version of the 'solution'...

 ...

 Trust your own judgement.

 You will realize that in most of the cases your own judgement is indeed correct. You do have enough E to outzoom him. However, what you do not have, is enough E to outzoom the guy, reverse at a safe vertical distance, and then bear guns on him on your way down. Usually that's when the mistakes start happening.

 You are alarmed by the fact that the '600' number behind you never seems to progress to '800'. The guy still has his guns pointed at you. You start thinking that you messed up, and either decide to bugger out during the zoom, or somehow try to do "something, anything" that alters your zoom, heading, direction, etc etc..

 Well, don't do that.

 The part you have misjudged is that you might be able to rope him up and then reverse on him during the process, and nail him from above when he is stalling. However, the part you did NOT misjudge, is that initially you have had more E than him.

 Give up your attempts to 'reverse' on him artificially, and let nature take its course. Instead of moving your plane around to point your plane nose-down during your zoom, just go straight upto 0mph.

 Trust your judgement and trust the odds.

 The chances of meeting someone who can snipe your zoom climb from 600 yards away while floating vertically at speeds under 100mph, is not too high. Just keep going vertical, make no attempts to reverse, and you can be sure that when your own plane reach the 0mph mark, the enemy plane has long since stalled. You may not have enough E to make the reversal during the roping maneuver and shoot him down, but you still have enough E to keep out of effective firing range during a zoom climb.

 Hit the 0mph mark, let your plane nose down, and then you can either start all over again, or just call it quits and go home.

Offline Gumbeau

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 164
Tactics: when enemy doesnt immel
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2007, 03:01:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
If you're already above your opponent and you pull up for a "lead turn" you're not doing a lead turn you've just effectively turned your six to him.  A lead turn is a turn into the opponent before the merge occurs and the goal is to gain angles before he begins to turn himself.  The reason a bandit gains a rear quarter position in your scenario here is that you've just turned in front of him and put him behind your wingline.

Mace


You are confusing my use of the word 'above' with a reference to a horizontal position in space. Above, in my context, was referring to 'higher altitude'. Sorry for the confusion.

In a head on merge, lead turns can be vertical or horizontal or a combination of both (oblique).

Prior to the merge a vertical lead is a very effective tactic but it absolutely requires initiation at an altitude lower than the bandit. This vertical lead turn must be timed properly for success. Too early and the bandit can see and react. Too late and it will not be effective.

If you properly initiate (below the bandit and properly timed) a vertical lead turn the bandit is faced with a few choices. If he reacts with a vertical maneuver of his own you will have gained his rear quarter. If he reacts purely horizontal or nose low break, you will be directly above his turn circle and able to use follow-on BFM to match his turn circle for a shot. The bandit could do a level or slightly nose high extension, which would setup another merge if he chooses to re-engage. Lastly, the bandit could split S, giving you the option of pursuing or not.

Conversely, if you are planning a vertical lead turn at the merge and the bandit won't let you get lower, that instantly tells you the bandit is planning a vertical lead turn of his own and is denying you the lower altitude. You will have a decision to make. You can try to create horizontal seperation to deny him the vertical lead turn and create your own horizontal lead turn or you can pass close abeam and extend through the merge .