Author Topic: plane on a conveyor belt?  (Read 19892 times)

Offline eskimo2

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #435 on: January 26, 2007, 10:26:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 2bighorn
Simplified definition: inertia is amount of resistance to change in velocity which is determined by mass.

That, honestly doesn't make any sense. As long as the energy created by generators isn't used for braking force, plane will still move.
 


Why don’t you see this?...

Try it this way then:
The plane on the treadmill has big electric generators driven by the wheels.  The generators can turned on or off.
Plane sits on treadmill.  Treadmill is off.  Plane engine is off.  Generator switch is off.

Treadmill is turned on to 50 mph: plane basically sits still, wheels freewheeling.  Plane engine is still off.

Treadmill is still on at 50 mph.  Generator switch is turned on: generators make electricity.  The plane starts moving back on the conveyor.  Plane engine is still off.

Do you get that?

Offline eskimo2

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #436 on: January 26, 2007, 10:48:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SteveBailey
Now you are talking distance(feet). The original scenario talks of speed.  You have already admitted the plane will move forward, regardless.  Plane moves, wheels spin, plane takes off.


Again you are allowing for the conveyer to accelerate the wheel... it only paces the wheel.  You cannot change the rules.

Also, why are you ignoring the fact that rolling resistance is constant?


Steve,

If the wheel moves forward relative to the earth it has a higher speed, regardless of how fast the conveyor is moving.

I’m explaining it this way because you don’t seem to get the idea; you’ve got to get the principle first.  This is easier to understand if you first imagine that there are some tolerances.  How accurate do you want, “tunes the speed of the conveyor to be exactly the same” to be?  Perfectly?  Fine: the conveyor keeps the speed of the conveyor and wheel exactly the same by accelerating at the exact appropriate rate to load the wheels with exactly the same rotational inertia energy as the energy output of the engine.

When have I ever said anything about rolling resistance?   Rolling resistance is not rotational inertia.  You are confusing the two.

Offline eskimo2

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #437 on: January 26, 2007, 10:53:56 PM »
P.S.

Here’s what HT said about the story analogy:

Quote
Originally posted by hitech


eskimo2:
Not a bad analogy eskimo. And obviously they would accelerate at different speeds do to the rotational inertia stored in the wheels. Since 1 has 0 mass, 1 has 1/2 mass, the 0 would be in front , followed by the 1/2 mass.  Followed by the original plane.



Read the story, I think it’s what made the guys on the physics board finally get it.

Offline lukster

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #438 on: January 26, 2007, 10:54:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 2bighorn
Lets assume the same is with destructibility of conveyor and wheels.
If your conveyor is able to reach the speed of light, let my plane be able to do the same.

It is unfair to ignore or bend laws of physics for the parts of equation needed to prove your hypothesis, at the same time apply them rigorously to the rest.


And all will become incapable of motion relative to gravitational forces of mass approaching the infinite.

Offline Wes14

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #439 on: January 26, 2007, 10:55:31 PM »
how about u get the mythbusters to do this one:noid
Warning! The above post may induce: nausea, confusion, headaches, explosive diarrhea, anger, vomiting, and whining. Also this post may not make any sense, or may lead to the hijack of the thread.

-Regards,
Wes14

Offline SteveBailey

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #440 on: January 26, 2007, 11:16:37 PM »
I'm not confusing anything, you are trying to ignore certain points because they do not fit your argument.

you have already said the plane will roll foward, and you've already said the plane will not move.  You want to have it both ways as it is convenient for you.

Which is it?

Offline lukster

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #441 on: January 26, 2007, 11:19:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SteveBailey
I'm not confusing anything, you are trying to ignore certain points because they do not fit your argument.

you have already said the plane will roll foward, and you've already said the plane will not move.  You want to have it both ways as it is convenient for you.

Which is it?


Allow me. For the belt to initiate movement the plane must move forward. How much forward motion is allowed is dependent upon how much thrust the engine can generate and how much opposing force the belt can apply. It may only be trillionths of an inch.

The plane may only have to think about moving. At the quantum level of course. ;)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2007, 11:22:52 PM by lukster »

Offline SteveBailey

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #442 on: January 26, 2007, 11:26:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
Allow me. For the belt to initiate movement the plane must move forward. How much forward motion is allowed is dependent upon how much thrust the engine can generate and how much opposing force the belt can apply. It may only be trillionths of an inch.

The plane may only have to think about moving. At the quantum level of course. ;)



Then again it might move far enough and fast enought to take off, in your model.

Offline lukster

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #443 on: January 26, 2007, 11:28:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SteveBailey
Then again it might move far enough and fast enought to take off, in your model.


All you have to do is say the thrust of the plane  is greater than the force applied by the belt. I'm ready to let you decide.

Offline SteveBailey

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #444 on: January 26, 2007, 11:49:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
All you have to do is say the thrust of the plane  is greater than the force applied by the belt. I'm ready to let you decide.


I've been saying that.   :)

Offline lukster

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #445 on: January 26, 2007, 11:50:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SteveBailey
I've been saying that.   :)


you win, dat plane be flyin'

Offline 2bighorn

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #446 on: January 26, 2007, 11:53:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2
Read the story, I think it’s what made the guys on the physics board finally get it.
Ok Eskimo, let me see if I got that right
You have created the problem where there isn't any. You work under assumption that conveyor possesses some fuzzy logic and is unable to match the acceleration rate of the plane therefore it outaccelerate at such rate that wheels would be spinning so fast to be able to store enough rotational energy to act as a giant flywheel resisting to any kind of movement of a plane.

Lets say it is so and that the conveyor is accelerating faster and faster and that the wheel can actually sustain unlimited rpms.

Now, device such as this fast spinning wheel would resist all latitudinal but not longitudinal change of direction of it's axis of rotation, hence if plane moves forward, it wouldn't stop it, no matter how much force you apply to conveyor, but it would resist if plane would try to weer off to the right or left.

Before you ask me where all this energy goes, let me tell you it wouldn't go anywhere. The wheel would simply store all that energy and keep rotating until all energy would slowly wear off due to friction and other smaller forces such as drag etc.

That ability to store the energy is the reason we got flywheels and they were used since centuries.

And the plane... Ahh yeah, it would still take off.

Offline lukster

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #447 on: January 26, 2007, 11:56:57 PM »
Eskimo did not suppose the question nor define it's conditions, just to be clear here.

Offline SteveBailey

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #448 on: January 26, 2007, 11:57:50 PM »
LOL Luk,  I didn't feel like we were debating/arguing enough to have a "winner"... just a friendly tete-e-tete.  


I do understand, FWIW,  the point you are making about the net drag/resistance at the wheels.  I'm glad we concluded this thread on a friendly note, irrespective of the outcome.  I do so very much enjoy civil discourse.*

To all in here who treated me so kindly during this lil affair, I thank you.


Steve..........out!




* I am sometimes guilty of needlessly ratcheting up the volume.

Offline lukster

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plane on a conveyor belt?
« Reply #449 on: January 26, 2007, 11:59:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SteveBailey
LOL Luk,  I didn't feel like we were debating/arguing enough to have a "winner"... just a friendly tete-e-tete.  


I do understand, FWIW,  the point you are making about the net drag/resistance at the wheels.  I'm glad we concluded this thread on a friendly note, irrespective of the outcome.  I do so very much enjoy civil discourse.*

To all in here who treated me so kindly during this lil affair, I thank you.


Steve..........out!




* I am sometimes guilty of needlessly ratcheting up the volume.


:)