Author Topic: Sunday Night Ops... so what did you think? (Read 5908 times)

Imoutfishing · « **on:** February 26, 2007, 12:23:14 AM »

Post up with your thought's on running an event on Sunday nights. What would you like to see or have a new concept? Post it we are looking for feedback from you all.

I know I had a good time... what about you?

MGD

Treize69 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 26, 2007, 12:35:43 AM »

My only real complaint/suggestion would be to break the stream up (and the escorts) between several targets. So many planes in one spot, I had a couple times I let a kill get away because my framerates dropped to nothing, including one that went on to get 2 buffs. Plus it would make it a bit more accurate in having the Luftwaffe have to decide which effort to counter, or split between all of them.

Another "might be nice" would be to allow the Luftwaffe to reup to simulate later waves of attackers, and to let the USAAF who've gone down up a later group fighters as withdrawal ecort- in reality there would be an escort on the way in, a second force escort over the target and the first leg of withdrawal, and then a third force to relieve them and protect the bombers out over the North Sea or the Channel. And the Luftwaffe would have a second and even third force waiting to hit the bombers in their turn away from the target, and again at about the time the escorts were being relieved. It wasn't that "all or nothing" single mass attack.

Roscoroo · « **Reply #2 on:** February 26, 2007, 01:13:55 AM »

"Another "might be nice" would be to allow the Luftwaffe to reup to simulate later waves of attackers"

We discussed that point after the scenario ... And It will be given alot of thought

2 or 3 lives would be an option especially against buff formations, or even a different plane option for a second life .

Btw the logs are up http://ahevents.org/eventlogs.html
there in the "Snapshot" section .

Kermit de frog · « **Reply #3 on:** February 26, 2007, 01:25:22 AM »

I say have more than 1 group of B17s. Too many in 1 spot was killing framerates. Besides, 2nd wave could clean up after first wave. Have 2nd wave maybe 1/2 sector behind.

Fighters could then be split to cover both groups.

Enemy could do a full attack against 1 group or maybe divide and attack both groups.

2nd lives for the Luftwaffe could be fun too, but maybe have them reup together at a specific point in time, airspawn even.

Also have the allied fighters carry less fuel to simulate the bombers flying outside the range of allied fighters. Would be a massacure for the bombers dudes. Would be fun.

Also, have the Axis get a 110 up high and follow the Bomber group, that way he can report bomber positions any time someone asks.

Also, during exit, the bombers were at full throttle, thereby not letting the ones in the back catch up.

Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

Brooke · « **Reply #4 on:** February 26, 2007, 01:33:27 AM »

I liked it a lot. Thanks to the organizers for making it happen!

Also, I liked the Sunday time slot -- I have an easier time for a Sunday time slot than any other day.

Imoutfishing · « **Reply #5 on:** February 26, 2007, 01:45:29 AM »

Kermit is fixed on that fact that we would run the same mission every week. This would not be the case of course.

The feed back we need is more geared to a Sunday night event that everyone will enjoy yet let walkons & squads get envolved.

Kermit managed to get Betty killed off way to early so advise on tonight's activity is null & void

MGD

tedrbr · « **Reply #6 on:** February 26, 2007, 01:45:36 AM »

174 logged pilots, that's exceptionally good for a SEA Snapshot.

Surprised only 10 pilot difference between Allied (92)(53%) and Axis (82) (47%).... seemed a lot worse, from Axis side, but that was a coordination effort on Axis side. Actually pretty close to 50/50....better than usual.

30 Bomber flights? Sheesshhhh.... 90 bombers about, not counting 60-some escorts, to Axis 82 pilots total. IIRC, late war missions were typically 1 fighter for every 2 bombers. After a certain number, that 3-plane bomber flight starts to overwhelm the Axis.

About frame rate. Can't tailor events for lowest common denominator as far as hardware and connections. If you know you've got frame rate problems, you need to adjust for it. In a case such as this, hunting for stragglers would work. Also, very hard to know what the turn out will be for any Snapshot event.

Obvious problems: late comers. People showing up 5 minutes or less before take off and barrage of "what we doing" questions. People that have not looked at the posted write up for the event. No way to stop that from happening for snapshots.

If some CO's and XO's can be identified BEFORE the event, and able to do a little coordinating, it can make up for the late comers.

Heard some complaints about Allied airspawn, but that was really the only way to get them to historical operating altitudes for the senerio in time allotted. Not really a problem, I got an A8 to altitude easily enough with 100% fuel and DT. (110's needed the airspawn up north). The Axis airspawn may have been too far north if anything.

AXIS:
Okay, this is all in hind sight, and I thought I'd be flying Allied as a buff driver, but the numbers were pretty lopsided when I logged in, so I flew Axis.

* CO's/XO's identified earlier would have simplified the plane-types, fields, runway spawns and loadouts. Just a little prep work by a couple individuals, or a squadron that want to take on the duty prior to the event. These Field CO's /XO's and overall Axis CO could have kept each other informed as to population at each starting field. Try to balance things for "squadrons". As new players joined, they would have been directed to the proper field, and conduct a lot of the prep work in local channel.

* Not Concentrated: Should have concentrated more forces just west of the targets closer in and sent out 4 plane scouts to locate the enemy bombers along probably radar gaps, and investigate flashing dars. Axis attacks against the buffs were too thin against all the P-38's and P47 escorts. Axis was in several concentrations, but all over the map, and out of position when attacks began.

* Communication or coordination problem. Some Axis planes got spread all over the skies. As bombers were on run to first target, a number of planes were far to the west near V77. Unsure if they were looking for second group, or never saw the updates in the text buffers about sightings. Just like a real war in that aspect.

* Plane types 110's got kills, but considering the altitudes and escorts, perhaps higher percentage of Fw 190-A5's might have been better choice.

Allied
Nice box formation. Very similar to first one FiLtH ran some time ago. A larger percentage of the escorts stayed on station with the buffs even late on the return trip, than what is typical for missions in game. Good discipline.

Quote

Allies stats:
Pilots: 92    Kills: 69    Assists: 93
Objects Destroyed: 281    Deaths: 17    Landed: 57
Bailed: 2    Captured: 11    Crashed: 14
Ditched: 1    Disco'd: 4

Quote

Axis stats:
Pilots: 82    Kills: 50    Assists: 17
Objects Destroyed: 1    Deaths: 44    Landed: 36
Bailed: 21    Captured: 0    Crashed: 5
Ditched: 4    Disco'd: 3

HB555 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 26, 2007, 02:01:48 AM »

I totally disagree with Kermit, who said, "Also, during exit, the bombers were at full throttle, thereby not letting the ones in the back catch up.

Slow is smooth and smooth is fast."

Last event I flew, the bombers all went back to target because someone had two eggs left. We all had to slow down and wait. Then the Axis showed up and decimated us. All for two eggs and 1 plane. We would have, most likely, been out of the sector and 14 more bombers would have made it home.
Drop and get. Thats how it was done then. That's how it should be done now, and I would feel the same if I was tail end charlie and got blasted, if it saved a bunch of others.
Wait...I have been tail end charlie and led the "bad guys" away from the main bomber stream.

I am not overly wild on the drop three here drop three there method.
Would prefer to see each bomber flight have a designated target, and salvo 1 or salvo all would be fine, but they must all be dropped on one target in one pass, then beat feet for home.
However, I did enjoy this event a whole bunch. ~~to the CM Team that put it together and ran it.~~

Treize69 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 26, 2007, 02:21:25 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by tedrbr
About frame rate. Can't tailor events for lowest common denominator as far as hardware and connections. If you know you've got frame rate problems, you need to adjust for it. In a case such as this, hunting for stragglers would work. Also, very hard to know what the turn out will be for any Snapshot event.

System had nothing to do with it. I consistently get over 70, usually as high as 85, in any terrain and in the massive furballs of the MA.

At one point in the fight, I had to break off a 190 when I was getting a framerate of 5 over the bomber box. Pulled out to the side about 4,000 yards away from the bombers and it was back up over 60. Out hunting 110s that were trailing the stream, back to the normal 85.

Going in to land with all the fighters and bombers taxiing in to park and lining up to land, was back down to 10 or lower.

betty · « **Reply #9 on:** February 26, 2007, 03:32:25 AM »

ok heres my opinon on tonights events....

i had fun..concidering what happened. the front group of 17's didnt throttle back enuff for all of us to form up. kermit didnt get me killed, it was everyone else that didnt wait up for us that got me killed. if we had been in a better formation, then we could have helped each other alot better..example..everyone in the front group managed to pretty much survive the attacts cuz they were tight..thus leavin the ones that were in the back open to any and all attacks. had everyone throttled back and waited then formed up we would have been fine. kermit survived cuz he had a few escorts helpin him out after myself and fianna were attacked so badly. this is my 2 cents and thats all it is, i'm not pointin fingers at anyone. my suggestion, next time, bombers need to be tighter formation.

Curval · « **Reply #10 on:** February 26, 2007, 08:37:48 AM »

Had a great time. Managed to get home with 2/3 bombers and hit a decent number of targets.

My only complaint would be that on one bomb run my bombs hit buildings that had been targetted by someone else. Theirs hit first unfortunately for me.

Curval <- Flying as SAMWAM on my son's account.

Stampf · « **Reply #11 on:** February 26, 2007, 08:52:35 AM »

It was short but fun for my gruppe. At 30 K feet our 190 A5's were stretched to the maximum. Sadly our 5 fighters found the allied mass first. We were quickly dispatched by the jugs but just the sight of all those bombers was worth a look. All in all it was very cool and I wouldn't hesitate to participate in another like event. Salute to all who participated on both sides.

Squire · « **Reply #12 on:** February 26, 2007, 08:56:19 AM »

Had lots of fun.

*If* large #s do split up the strike into 2 "bomber groups" though...

Have a strict frame end time limit, then call a frame 2 if there is interest.

Was good to see 100+ ? in a Snapshot.

detch01 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 26, 2007, 10:15:49 AM »

I had a great time in the event, even with frame rates often in the single digits near the bombers. That was a great event, amazing attendance too - at one point I counted 151 players in the arena.

A couple of suggestions though:
-Identifying the CO's & XO's early would help a lot to clear up the initial confusion for players coming in to the event.
-Having the CO's name GL's for the different aircraft types would also clear up a lot of confusion for players coming in to the event and improve coordination between players. From the allied perspective last night the LW seemed hamstrung by not attacking the allied formations as a group. Had they done so I think they would have done a lot more damage to the bombers and not felt so overwhelmed by the size of the grouped allied players.
-If the attendance warrants it, laying in additional roles or targets such as a fighter sweep ahead of the bomber box, or breaking the attackers up into groups and assign specific targets to each group in the target area.

Cheers,
asw

tedrbr · « **Reply #14 on:** February 26, 2007, 11:32:52 AM »

Seen the posts about straggler Bomber flights, what MAN was the formation trying to hold? Or better yet, what % of maximum power settings where you at?

I noticed the stragglers too late on my run in, or I'd have targeted them instead of the rear of the main group. Still, I had no real chance with all those P38's and Jugs on station.

To keep a formation together, and help stragglers, I've found that running buffs at 80% of full MAN is reasonable. At 15 to 25K that will translate at 35 to 40 MAN. Maybe 30 MAN even higher.

Have to disagree with those that say drop and run. You break and run, you will split up all over the sky, you make it harder on the escorts, and make it easier to pick off stragglers. Bomber formation's strength is not it's speed, but it's overlapping fields of fire from a formation (and it's altitude to some degree). You fight your way in and you fight your way out.

How did that many bombers doing an Airspawn work out? Did you spawn by Group? Did fighters wait to spawn separately to avoid FR problems? Did fighters lift from ground and catch up to bombers en route?

*******************************************************

Overall, I think Sunday Nights have the capability of becoming a great Snapshot Night. Turnouts seems to be well above average, and this was the first run.

As to concepts:
Maybe the next one or two should not focus on bomber formations, until issues about numbers and FR have been hashed out? Time for a Pacific Theater fight? Midway? Coral Sea? The Slot? Okinawa?
JABO run and interception? Battle of Britain dogfight? Mossie Raid? Something Early War, or from the Eastern Front? North Africa?

Or if high numbers say consistent, pick a medium bomber with no formations for an event?

Maybe an Eastern Front fight with GV's included to bring the Heavy Metal Monday boys into it? GV's, Attack planes. Heavy cloud cover with low ceiling, limited vis? Fog? Smaller battle area. A down-in-the-mud, miserable conditions, fight. This is more of a slug fest, 2 life type of event?

It was nice to see snow terrain again. Been a long time since I have seen snow in an online arena.