Author Topic: Hate To Sound Like A Broken Record...  (Read 475 times)

Offline Stoney74

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Hate To Sound Like A Broken Record...
« on: March 05, 2007, 01:50:03 AM »
Fogvis settings.  If planes are flying in the flight levels, there might be clouds/layers/overcast, but in the places they're not, visibility is typically unlimited.  I won't post about this again, I promise.


Offline APDrone

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Hate To Sound Like A Broken Record...
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2007, 10:46:45 AM »
Pardon my ignorance, but what is the problem?

We had them set to 12 miles.

I haven't been following any fog/vis discussion outside of the time or 2 when we set them way low and pilots had to actually watch their instruments to see if they were flying straight and level. ( Really neat experience suffering vertigo and finding yourself spinning to the ground )
Ok.. some found that annoying.. hence the setting it back to farther distances.

Are you describing an issue with the settings we can control, or the features of the game as a whole?  ( stuff we cannot control )

Are there some discussion links you can point me to?

Thanks,
AKDrone

Scenario "Masters of the Air" X.O. 100th Bombardment Group


Offline Stoney74

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Hate To Sound Like A Broken Record...
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2007, 08:41:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by APDrone
Are you describing an issue with the settings we can control, or the features of the game as a whole?  ( stuff we cannot control )


Pardon the abruptness of the post.  Its my personal wish that in the setups/frames where there would be a majority of combat taking place at altitude, that fogvis settings be set to maximum.  I initiated the discussion regarding the settings during the January setup of the high-altitude "IFR-lite" view characteristics.  I thought the settings used last month were great.  I have no idea what affect the settings have on the different individual maps.  Unfortunately, it seems like the setting gives you a "sphere" of visibility instead of what would exist in RL (that of a line of sight that extends to the limits of the eyeball, Given the mechanics of the horizon in AH (something you can't control) I contend that the best answer when fights will predominantly take place up high, say, above 20,000 feet is to bump the settings up to the limit, which I believe is 17 miles (something you can control).  Given the nature of short icons, I think it is the best compromise between seeing aircraft at a distance (which would happen in real life) and being able to discern type/orientation at a distance (which is difficult due to the nature of the graphics in the game).

In real life, humans can perceive distance equal to:

visible distance (in nm) = 1.17 x the square root of the height (in feet). At 20,000 feet, that's equal to 140 miles or so, assuming an unobstructed line of sight.  At 30,000 feet, that's equal to 170 miles or so.  Factor in the amount of dust, water vapor, etc. present and it reduces that distance.  Regardless of the particulate matter, the game can't generate that type of distance, so they throw the "fog" effect in to smoothe the horizon and provide a transition to limit the distance the game has to create.  You can't do anything to change that.  Also, in some climates, especially at low altitudes, haze can exist all the time.  The problem is that during FSO, everybody (for the most part) becomes alt-monkeys and so a lot of (especially fighter interceptions) take place at altitude.  During the game, it becomes difficult to judge a horizon at those altitudes with the foggy transition that limits the distance the software must generate.  So, understanding you can't go beyond 17 miles, and that fogvis settings affect all altitudes equally (which wouldn't happen in real life), I suggest the idea to maximize visibility settings in those setups that will encourage high altitude combat.      

If it is a situation where you want weather effects to be present that could interfere with line of sight, by all means place them in the setup, but don't use fogvis as a manner of introducing weather effects.  

I'll caveat all of this by saying I have no idea the effort required to create clouds, cloud layers, or overcast conditions nor their affect on framerates.  It may be asking too much, given the limitations of the software.  Again, I'm just throwing the idea out there for discussion.  If the answer is "its the best we can do given the nature of the game architecture", I'll just have to be content, until the time comes when HTC can more realistically model the sight distances in the game.


Offline Stoney74

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Hate To Sound Like A Broken Record...
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2007, 03:16:12 AM »
Did some testing offline today.  You can crank it up to 19K without getting the weirdo "flat Earth" effect on the horizon.  Decent visibility from 30K at that setting.

Offline Swoop73

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Hate To Sound Like A Broken Record...
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2007, 09:00:57 AM »
Wow, Stoney, that visibility equation blew me away. :-)

I don,'t know what's involved with setting up vis for different altitudes but you're right, it's almost always CAVU above the haze layer and barring occasional CU's extending into the flight levels, unlimited would be the general rule above say, 15,000.

Popping up on top only to find enemy fighters you didn't know were there would add to the realism and was a factor in many an actual encounter.

On the other hand, I came to realize long ago that AH is all about War and War is all about things that don't work right. If the Visibility was set realistically, awesome, but if not, then it's just as hard for friend or foe and dealing with it is just another challenge.
"Had to...Had to keep 'em from the bombers"
325th Ace Art Fiedler on why he and 3 other Checkertails
charged into 40 FW 190's over Regensburg, Germany in Jan., 1945.

Offline APDrone

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« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2007, 11:04:35 AM »
Thanks for the writeup Stoney.

Visibility has been set to 17 miles for frame 3.
AKDrone

Scenario "Masters of the Air" X.O. 100th Bombardment Group


Offline Stoney74

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Hate To Sound Like A Broken Record...
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2007, 11:18:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by APDrone
Thanks for the writeup Stoney.

Visibility has been set to 17 miles for frame 3.


:aok Where do I send the booze??? :)