Author Topic: quick wep clarification  (Read 765 times)

Offline quintv

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quick wep clarification
« on: March 05, 2007, 03:05:58 PM »
WEP: having read most of Soda's evaluations before I signed up for this game;I understood that WEP was, in planes where this would be the case (boost systems involving injecting liquids and the such) time limited.

Reading some threads here though I now get the impression that on all planes, regardless of what "WEP" meant for that specific engine, the only limiters are engine temperature and fuel.

Which leaves me a little confused, definitively speaking which is it?

Offline blackdog68

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quick wep clarification
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2007, 03:09:30 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_emergency_power

In the game, it's consecutive duration and of course fuel limited.

Offline quintv

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quick wep clarification
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2007, 03:16:26 PM »
Consecutive duration.

So if I were to climb out in say a Bf.109K4 at 1.8 ATA, run it until it stopped.

Then flew around at normal or cruise settings to cool the engine.

I would later be able to engage it again for that same initial duration? (while being careful not to overheat)

Offline Sombra

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quick wep clarification
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2007, 05:39:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by blackdog68
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_emergency_power

In the game, it's consecutive duration and of course fuel limited.


Interesting link. Following to MW50 I read for the first time of the existence of "MW30". Does anybody know anything more about this variation? Its application would fit AH arena nicely.

Offline Xasthur

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quick wep clarification
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2007, 09:40:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by quintv
Consecutive duration.

So if I were to climb out in say a Bf.109K4 at 1.8 ATA, run it until it stopped.

Then flew around at normal or cruise settings to cool the engine.

I would later be able to engage it again for that same initial duration? (while being careful not to overheat)


Correct.

Also, overheating will simply mean that your WEP will cut out, it is not possible to run an engine into malfunction in this game unless your radiator becomes damaged, then all you can do is turn your engine off before your 'engine temp' metre peaks and hope to be able to fly engine-off for long enough for it cool enough to get you home (you can keep repeating this process)

You will not need to climb-out on WEP in a K-4. You'll out-climb most rides while not on wep.

Use your WEP to get up to 300 mph or so, pull back and hit auto-climb and '3' on your climb angle indicator, drop off wep and stay at 100%.

Take a drop-tank. Once you climb to your desired alt, maybe throttle back to 1.0 aTA for a bit.

Works best for me in the K4
« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 09:45:06 PM by Xasthur »
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Offline Stoney74

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Re: quick wep clarification
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2007, 01:03:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by quintv
WEP: having read most of Soda's evaluations before I signed up for this game;I understood that WEP was, in planes where this would be the case (boost systems involving injecting liquids and the such) time limited.

Reading some threads here though I now get the impression that on all planes, regardless of what "WEP" meant for that specific engine, the only limiters are engine temperature and fuel.

Which leaves me a little confused, definitively speaking which is it?


As the war progressed, the U.S. radials (Corsairs, Jugs, etc.) were equipped with water tanks to supply the cooling water used when a certain power range was entered.  In the Jug, for example, water was needed above 54" of manifold pressure.  Higher pressures are always available, but the higher cylinder head temperatures that are created can cause the fuel entering to detonate, or combust prematurely which causes severe stresses on connecting rods and the crankshaft.  So, when run at those higher pressures, cooling water was introduced into the fuel mixture to cool the cylinder heads while running at those manifold pressures.  So, in real life, it was a limited system.  You could run it until you ran out of water.  After that, you could still enter into those higher manifold pressures, you just wouldn't be able to cool the cylinders, and therefore, ran the risk of detonation.  The Wiki definition is functional, but contains some generalities that could be confusing.  P-47's started out with 15 gallon water tanks, but later versions carried 30 gallons, as an example.  There was also the added bonus of decreased fuel consumption as an equivalent amount of gas was replaced by the water.  You can see this effect in the game when flying the P-47N and F4U-4.  You'll notice, with your E6B open, that fuel consumption drops when using WEP.

But, I'm assuming that in the interest of simplicity, HTC decided to model the WEP the way it is to provide a standard, which is basically limited to 5 minutes in the U.S. rides and 10 minutes in most of the German rides.  Historically, the P-47N's 30 gallon water tank was capable of providing water injection for 15 minutes, meaning the pilot could theoretically run 72" of manifold pressure for 15 minutes.  The 47N POH still limits the use of that setting at 5 minutes of duration in order to limit wear and tear on the engine.  But, that's not to say the pilot couldn't use 5 minutes at a time, 3 different occasions.

The concept is still used today by the Unlimited class at the Reno Air Races.  If you ever watch film of them racing, you'll see a thin stream of vapor coming out of the back of the plane.  This is the excess trailing off.  They also have much bigger tanks :)

Hope I didn't confuse the issue.

Offline Viking

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quick wep clarification
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2007, 04:00:04 AM »
Wartime Emergency Power is the same for every plane in Aces High, with only duration and cool-down time being different to each plane (5 minutes on, 5 minutes off for most planes). The various injection systems (MW50, water injection, GM1) are not modeled except for their impact on power and fuel consumption. You cannot run out of MW50 or water, and the weight of these liquids are not reduced with use. The 109K-4 has an historic 10 minute WEP (with MW50) with 5 minute cool down between uses, and this time is modeled in the game. You can WEP on and off until you run out of fuel.

Always climb on WEP in the 109K. It will get you to 20K in ~5 minutes and you use approx. the same amount of fuel as on MIL. After a 5 minute cruise the full 10 minute WEP is available again, so there is no good reason not to climb on WEP.

Offline Gianlupo

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quick wep clarification
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2007, 04:07:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Xashtur

...unless your radiator becomes damaged, then all you can do is turn your engine off before your 'engine temp' metre peaks and hope to be able to fly engine-off for long enough for it cool enough to get you home (you can keep repeating this process)


But, if you lose all of your oil, eventually, you won't be able to run the engine, isn't it? When I lose the radiator I usually try to bug out from the fight, climb as high as I can before engine quits and glide with RPM at minimum and pressing alt+x for best gliding speed towards a frienldy base, hoping to make it.
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Offline Widewing

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quick wep clarification
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2007, 07:20:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
After a 5 minute cruise the full 10 minute WEP is available again, so there is no good reason not to climb on WEP.


In the 109K-4, WEP lasts for 9:35 (9 minutes, 35 seconds). Cool down to restore WEP to full duration is exactly the same.

For the P-51D, WEP lasts for 4:54 and cool down time is exactly double of that (9.8 minutes).

There are occasions when using WEP on climb is beneficial, but the drawback is that you may meet an enemy and only have a fraction of your WEP duration available. This places you at a disadvantage immediately. This is especially important when flying American or Brit aircraft as the cool down duration is twice that of WEP duration.

As a general rule, I always use WEP on the takeoff run and leave it on until the engine reaches normal operating temperature. It's going to get to that temperature in the same time span at MIL power anyway. Thus, for absolutely zero penalty, you gain the extra altitude by using WEP.

My old squad would frequently fly squad night missions. Often, the guy leading the mission would announce, "Let's WEP it on the climb-out." I'd suggest that they not do that. If leader disagreed, I'd simply ignore him. Several times these missions would be intercepted and I'd be the only guy with full WEP available. WEP can make the difference in a sustained fight.

I'd like to see HTC actually model the volume of water/MW50 available. When it's gone, it's gone. However, the added complexity to the coding would be huge. So, I can live with what we have. Yet, I'd like to see those aircraft with 5 minutes of WEP have a cool down duration equal to the WEP duration. Especially with regards to air cooled engines that can usually be "super-cooled" by merely entering a shallow dive with power reduced.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline Viking

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quick wep clarification
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2007, 09:04:02 AM »
When did they change it?

Offline Widewing

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quick wep clarification
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2007, 09:15:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
When did they change it?


I don't know. However, that's the way it was two weeks ago when I tested several fighters.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline Viking

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quick wep clarification
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2007, 09:40:44 AM »
Just tested it offline. 10 minutes 6 seconds on the stop-watch (maybe there’s some randomization going on?). You are however right in that it takes ~10 minutes to cool down again, and I wonder why HTC decided on this since the 109 pilot handbook clearly states 10 min on and 5 min off with MW50. But then again HTC haven't got any of the 109's WEP times/cool-down right, so why the K-4. It's almost like they've stolen 5 minutes from the late-war MW50 birds cool-down and given them to the early war non-MW50 109's Robin Hood style. ;)

Offline Widewing

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quick wep clarification
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2007, 10:42:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Just tested it offline. 10 minutes 6 seconds on the stop-watch (maybe there’s some randomization going on?). You are however right in that it takes ~10 minutes to cool down again, and I wonder why HTC decided on this since the 109 pilot handbook clearly states 10 min on and 5 min off with MW50. But then again HTC haven't got any of the 109's WEP times/cool-down right, so why the K-4. It's almost like they've stolen 5 minutes from the late-war MW50 birds cool-down and given them to the early war non-MW50 109's Robin Hood style. ;)


I timed it over a climb to 22k, then level after that, I suspect air speed has an effect on how fast the engine heats up. Thus, WEP is shortened in a climb?

For the P-51D, I climbed in WEP.

I'll do some additional testing to determine if engine temperature rises faster in a climb than when level.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline Viking

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quick wep clarification
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2007, 10:49:33 AM »
Doubtful. I climbed on WEP the entire test.

Offline BaDkaRmA158Th

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quick wep clarification
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2007, 07:45:39 PM »
Question: Because wep on alot of fighters is "like" puting the throttle to the wall.
does that mean without wep such said aircraft are actualy only operating at 80% engine capacity?

Ill take the engine over heat/engine wear if it means i can use 100% any time i want provided i dont already have engine damage or overheat.

i KNOW P is to "simulate" full power,but com'on..thats something my hand should simulate "on the yoke" not a key stroke. :|

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Yeah i know HT would have to add more code to each and every aircraft to make this possible, however the historic accuracy would be much better for the game in the long run.
Then when we have engine damage or wear, we could make the plane shake a little bit as if some part of the engine have gone bad.
heck even have the engine sputter & missfire,and shoot plumes of "bad" smoke every once in a while.

Oh pleasepleaseplease   PLEASE!
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