If I hear one more IL-2 fanboy say Aces High II is arcade ...

[Bronk]

Originally posted by Kweassa
This is interesting, in a very amusing sort of way.

 What you're basically saying is;

 "AH simplifies its realism/detail level enough to make it enjoyable in a competitive, MMOG game-type format".

 The reason this is so amusing, is the fact that the above explanation is what we usually refer to as "arcade", when us AH fans ridicule some of the other games such as Fighter Ace or WW2OL.

 Fighter Ace or WW2OL, on grounds of allowing easier access for casual gamers, simplifies their level of detail and realism regarding flight, to make it enjoyable in a "competitive, MMOG game-type format". Therefore, we regard their level of realism as inferior to AH, and we call them arcade. So if we call FA or WW2OL arcade, what's there to stop IL2 folks from calling our AH arcade as well?

 The FM can be subject of debate, but at least the modelling of the environment, interaction to objects, damage modelling, depiction of the plane on-board systems, weather effects, ground effect, take-off/landing procedures, and just about every other thing in IL2 is more detailed and realistic than AH. Heck, some people knitpick even the sounds, but try using AH's default sound.

 So, is that not enough for IL2 folks to call AH 'arcade'?
 Or at least, 'mostly arcade'?

 Your comments contradicts Benny's original post. If we take what you're saying at face value, then there's no denying that AH is 'arcade' or 'mostly arcade', when compared to IL2 - because for the same reasons, we ourselves call those lesser than AH in realism 'arcade'.

 So just what exactly makes up this level of 'realism' which AH is supposed to be at, that qualifies AH as being a 'realistic game' than compared with FA or WW2OL, but does not make it 'arcade' when compared with IL2?

 Truly amusing indeed.




 So you're implying that the level of flight management in IL2 is so realistic and complicated that it satisifes only people interested in serious flight simulations, and not suited for MMO gamers, but AH is simplifed and compact enough to fit the needs of online gamers but still retain enough realism into it.

 Okay, so just what is there in IL2's notorious "Complex Engine Management(CEM)", that is not in AH, that makes IL2 a 'sim' and AH a 'game'? Shall we actually try counting it?

* RPM/pitch management: also in AH
* throttle management: also in AH
* mixture control: not in AH
* supercharger control: not in AH
* radiator cowl control: not in AH

 Okay. Did I leave anything out? Should I put this in as well?

* managing engine temperature by throttle level


 Wow. That makes it a grand total of THREE more buttons to fiddle around in IL2, than in AH. If we add in the engine temp control, a total of FOUR more items to take care of.

 Golly, just how difficult is it to press three more buttons/keys? Let's see...

*mixture control... leave it auto rich. Lean out when plane drags fuel vapors
*supercharger control... memorize alt to kick in, and press button
*radiator control... leave it at auto. If no auto, leave it at 2~4. If engine temp high, 6~full open
* engine temp management... fly under 100% enroute. fly WEP at combat.

 Wow! My head is bursting. This is so complicated that IL2 must be only fit for tech-geeks.. AH is soooo much more simple without four items to manage. Or. is it?

 How many pilots in AH memorize the optimum alt best for their planes?
 How many pilots memorize optimum speed for flap engagement?
 How many pilots use different levels of flaps by situation and feel?
 How many pilots use cruise settings, or other forms of fuel conservation?
 How many pilots memorize the steps to landing on a carrier?
 How many pilots memorize the septs to take off a fully loaded F4U from a carrier?

 I don't know about you, but the above 'conditions' to memorize about IL2 CEM, doesn't seem all that much more complicated than some of our own knowledge in plane management and ACM that we use in everyday AH flying and combat.

 The only reason some of the CEM features are considered as a 'sim' stuff in your comment, is because your comparisons between AH and IL2 is inherently biased towards the favor of AH, in the sense that your definition of "complexity" is entire based on AH alone. The very same "too complex and difficult, and unsuitable for true MMO gaming" argument you are using, can be used against AH in the exact same manner when compared to FA or WW2OL. Perhaps rightfully so - since empirically most people who play games such as BF'42 or FA or WW2OL have much more difficulties in trying to adapt to AH, which is considered a more serious 'simulation', from their point of view, and not a truly enjoyable 'game'.

 In other words, the dividing line between 'sim' and 'game' you are using for IL2 and AH2, is incredibly arbitrary. As we've seen, the CEM is hardly 'complex' at all. The CEM is nothing but merely three ~ four more points of management where we simply memorize and press a single button according to the situation at hand.

 Saying the CEM is complex enough to make it a 'sim' (and therefore its functions not desirable in a MMOG), is like saying pressing the "G" key to manually raise gears is too much complex simulation, and must be unsuitable for MMOG than compared to auto takeoff.

 Think about it. The take-off procedure. How many procedures of take-off do we naturally memorize by the time we become a seasoned AH pilot? Think about your very first day in AH, and then now.

 First you 1) lock tail-wheel by pulling stick, 2) engage throttle, 3) see speed, 4) memorize the speed which is suitable to lifting from the ground, 5) use flaps if necessary, 6) pull back the stick and up, 7) press the G key to retract flaps, 8) retract flaps as well, if they're used. That's an eight step process which for someone unfamiliar with flight sims as a whole, can be considred much too complex. But in the end, with experience, it just comes naturally. CEM is nothing different.

 If you want to see a really difficult, "simulation" level of engine management try flying a Bf109E-3 in Flight Simulator X. If that were the case then clearly your argument would've made sense. But in reality the level of flight management isn't all that different from IL2 and AH2. The only difference is IL2 has 3~4 more things which AH just casually leaves out, and the level of technical detail concerning those 3~4 stuff can't be anymore 'complex' then memorizing how one takes off manually in AH2.

 Therefore, the whole;

 "IL2 is too realistic and complicated that it satisifes only people interested in serious flight simulations, and not suited for MMO gamers, but AH is simplifed and compact enough to fit the needs of online gamers but still retain enough realism into it"

 ..argument falls apart.

 IL2's every bit a game as AH is. The only difference is one is package based and has a limited multiplayer session, and the other is played upon an online server and has a basic MMOG interface and a 'virtual war' in it. The different levels of realism, which AH clearly lacks in, can not be excused with an "IL2 is too complex, and AH is just about right" attitude.

 It is only a matter of preference. It's not something that needs to be either justified or discredited. There can be arguments that people in AH don't want CEM because they're not used to it, or they feel it tedious, but any argument which implies that an IL2-ish CEM is too complex and unsuitable for MMOG is pure bogus.




 Ofcourse, declaring the two uncomparable, is about the easiest way to discourage people from actually comparing something and learning that IL2 is actually a pretty great game.

 Whfeeew

Please keep your signature to 5 printable lines in height, or lese.

Now if we can keep his posts to 5 lines or less.

Just kidding Kweassa.

As always and interesting view point.

Bronk

[Kweassa]

...er....you do?

 I know I do.

 Don't you?

 

[TalonX]

They are all GAMES.  My god.   Buy a plane and fly it if you want real life.  

This is the exact same phenomenom we see in AH when someone denigrates another's game play (toolshedders vs dog fighters).

It continues to amaze me that so many people require such personal validation that they can't stand someone prefering something else.

Get over yourself and enjoy whatever game you like, played the way you enjoy it most.  Stop worrying about those with a different opinion.

[Kweassa]

Get over yourself and enjoy whatever game you like, played the way you enjoy it most. Stop worrying about those with a different opinion.

 ..but... but...

 ... where's the fun in that?

[TalonX]

Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Have you ever flown IL-2 or Targetware? Those are more about flying than anything. You must remember to set your mixture at takeoff. You can't forget to make sure your radiator vents are open. You must make sure that you don't strain your motor too much by flying everywhere at full-throttle.

Don't ever hit X.  

[Murdr]

Originally posted by Kweassa
..but... but...

 ... where's the fun in that?

Hey look!! Its and imposter!!!  The real Kweassa would not say that in less than 1000 words.

[Saxman]

Point of order, Kweassa:

In AH2, you can replace the sounds you don't like. In Il-2 you're stuck with the ones they give you whether you like it or not.

I didn't like my Brownings in AH sounding like a laboring dishwasher, so I went out and found a sample of a real Ma Deuce firing. I don't have that option with PacFighters.

[Booz]

Call me when IL2 (or any other game at all for that matter) can handle a 500 player event.

[mrgrieves]

I gave up il2 series after I found out out it didn't have auto-pilot of auto-take off...

I mean - I need to get a beer, pee or do other things on climb out. I don't want to fly a plane the plane to the fight - I want to fight and blow stuff up!

[Hwkeye]

Originally posted by nirvana
You spelled it wrong, it's fanboi.

From Wikipedia:

"Fanboy  or fanboi is a term used to describe an individual (usually male, though the feminine version fangirl may be used for females) who is utterly devoted to a single fannish subject, or to a single point of view within that subject, often to the point where it is considered an obsession. Fanboys remain loyal to their particular obsession, disregarding any factors that differ from their point of view. Fanboys are also typically aggressive towards the opposing brand or competition of their obsession regardless of its merits or achievements."

[Mr No Name]

Originally posted by Booz
Call me when IL2 (or any other game at all for that matter) can handle a 500 player event.

If I could play in a 500 player arena here, I'd still be a customer.  If it ever changes back to that, I will gladly come right back.

[nirvana]

Ah well that's wikipedia...reality is a commodity:aok

[hubsonfire]

Hwkeye's a wikifanboi. Go figure.

[wstpt10]

This thread delivers.

Il2 is fun when you want to dive a 262 through a flight of B17s with one hand on the joystick and the other down your pants. Oh, and for doing stupid **** that no real pilot would ever do... Other than that, I'll stick to WW2OL and AH2, thanks.

[FrodeMk3]

Kweassa, in reference to your post: The point I was trying to make was, if Both AH and IL-2 had the same online format (multiplayer MA's), Based on FM, which do you think most would prefer? To me, IL-2 seems to make E-management much more of a chore, and perceived speed does not seem the same as AH. You can look at the latest version of WB's, and fly it side by side with AH. WB seems like it's at 2/3 speed to AH, at best. But WB's still has people flying it, because it's simple enough for most people to fly and fight, without having to worry so much about burning your engine up halfway to the fight.

P.S. I also noticed you alluded to IL-2 alot...But no comparison with Targetware?