French Fighters

[Angus]

Lets ponder a little more on all these little things.
1. Technical.
IMHO, there is not much to choose between the early 109's (including the captured 109, - btw the weight difference between that and what is documented isn't really that much). The 109 is the more powerful bird, bit still in the main Ballpark. The DW would probably have zoomed and dived okay, rolled better, and turned roughly the same. Climb probably less, firepower similar. (More firepower than a 109F).
It would be interesting to see some more data, but just getting good data on the 109E is getting troublesome!
2. Historical.
Although the Battle of France and the Lowlands was quickly over, it was costly for the LW. Numbers vary very much though. Normally it goes to 1000+, but it's a foggy area. Do numbers include Lowlands or just France, do they include Dunquerque (Just those are debated as today). But anyway, in those rough 4 weeks from May 10th to June 10th, a 1000 aircraft loss was a higher loss rate than in the BoB. (NB, there were lots of transport casualties, also many from flak, unlike the BoB which was mostly air-to-air).
So, the D520 was flown and fought in, and faired reasonably well, and not bad at all (if not even better) than other types at the time.
3 Simulated.
The crew of AH could IMHO cook up a reasonably well modelled D520. That is way above the FM of WW2OL. So, with some fighting, I tend to think that the 109E would have trouble with it. There is trouble with the Hurry1 and Spit1 as well. Anyway, well matched fighters usually make the fighting most funny!

[wstpt10]

Originally posted by quintv
lol YAY Pachy is here.

Who told you? was it wstpt?

Not I, he just showed up.

Mention the word Dewotine and Pachy zeros in.

[Knegel]

Originally posted by Pachy
The tested Emil was WkNr 1304, a very early production E-3. It had made an emergency landing in France in November 1939. It was overhauled and test-flown on its own, then in mockup fights versus many French types.


On the weight issue, we should agree first on what's the Emil's weight, because sources vary greatly. A German document I have seen says the typical loaded take-off weight (with fuel, ammo etc.) for an early, unarmoured E-3 would have been around 2610 kg. I suppose that in Spring 1940, they had added some armour, so it would have been a bit heavier, probably slightly lighter than the D.520's 2675 kg, but not that much. However, the French test report on WkNr 1304 says it was only 2540 kg loaded, which is inconsistent with other sources...

On the power issue, you have to research a bit. The DB601 has an excellent WEP capability, giving much more extra power than the Hispano's. But its continuous power is not that impressive. At altitude, the DB601A-1's 30-minute continuous setting is 960 metric hp versus 920 for the 12Y45 (continuous setting). The bigger difference is at lower altitudes, where the DB is much better, whereas the HS's Szydlowski compressor settles the differences at the highest altitudes.


No.

Hi,

the E3 had 2610kg, while the E4 got the new plating and had 2650kg. The testweight was probably recalculated to a smaler fuelload or it did miss ammo. Nevertheless, the testdatas show that the engine wasnt ok anymore after some flights, before they did use the plane for tests fights.

Otherwise there is nothing new, the E4 had more power, even with the 30min setting and it was more light and it had a better stall behaviour and even the damaged tested E3 had a similar turn.

The rather high losses of the LW during the BoF is a normal result of the Blitzkrieg tactic, where the airfiorce got send into combat often in tactical disadvantage in favour to a successfull ground support, the careless behaviour of the LW pilots after their experiences in Poland and Norway also played a role. The russian airforce did suffer the same problem, same like the RAF in the desert and in france(how many Blenheims got massacred while trying to destroy some bridges??).

If you look to the Hawk75 datas, you will see that its engine wasnt bad and although it was more heavy again, it had a rather good climb. From low to medium altitude the Hawk75 had similar or better performence than the BoB Hurri 1a, not so the D520, though above 4000m the Hawk lost much, while the D520 started to overcome it.

btw, for now dont saw someone writing here the french pilots didnt do well, so i dont understand why some always jump into a defending position.

Like like with the FAF, although they had great success vs the russian airforce, this dont make the performence of their planes better.

Greetings,

Knegel

[Angus]

This weight difference accounts to 1.5% roughly, 40 kg's, which is less a difference than between our Au-pair and my wife.
(on a scale of 5000 lbs + that is nothing)
As for the BoB, the LW changed their tactics several times, and were for much of the time NOT at disadvantage (the RAF had a hard time getting into the same altitude in time), - but the LW had however never ran into an enemy with that many aircraft of similar quality as well as a good network. The tactic was not to favour a good ground support (since there was any), - basically the BoB was intended to break the RAF and thereby the British well enough to either get them standing down, or get promptly invaded.
And, the bridge bombing RAF aircraft that got busted...were Fairey Battle. Obsolete....very much so!
BTW, do you have some Curtiss data to post?

[Charge]

"At altitude, the DB601A-1's 30-minute continuous setting is 960 metric hp versus 920 for the 12Y45 (continuous setting)."

At 5km?

"The bigger difference is at lower altitudes, where the DB is much better, whereas the HS's Szydlowski compressor settles the differences at the highest altitudes."

There shouldn't be big differences caused by other than the higher HP of DB601. Higher up the "second stage" of Szydlowski comp probably does make a difference.

    * DB601A-1

    Up to 1,100 PS (809 kW) at sea-level at 2,400 rpm, up to 1,020 PS (750 kW) at 2,400 rpm and 4.5 km altitude, B4 fuel

From wiki, well maybe it is right...

-C+

Ed.

DB601Aa

# Power output:

    * 865 kW (1,175 PS - 1,160 hp) at 2,500 rpm for takeoff
    * 735 kW (1,000 PS - 985 hp) at 2,400 rpm for max continuous

E-3 had DB601Aa

[Pachy]

If you look to the Hawk75 datas, you will see that its engine wasnt bad and although it was more heavy again, it had a rather good climb.

I think the H-75 is a bit overestimated, because published performance figures are for a plane with less equipment that the typical French configuration. Once you realize that the real-life take-off weight was over 2800 kg, it's starting to look less attractive. Additionally, from what I've heard the higher power settings of later P&W-engined variants (A-2 and A-3) required 100-octane fuel which was not issued to French units flying the H-75. But at least the Curtiss was reliable and easy to maintain...

Up to 1,100 PS (809 kW) at sea-level at 2,400 rpm

Yes, but this is the 1-minute take-off power setting, it is not very much significant for technical comparisons in combat environment.

up to 1,020 PS (750 kW) at 2,400 rpm and 4.5 km altitude, B4 fuel

This is the 5-minute WEP setting.

Regarding the positive pilot's outlook on the D.520, one has to realize that most converted from the MS.406 that was very unreliable and performed below official figures. The D.520 did work generally fine, which certainly helped with its popularity

[Angus]

BTW, the D520 may have racked up most of it's flying hours as an advanced trainer for the LW.

[VooWho]

French bombers and Fighters of WW2. Not asking for these, though a few I would love to see, just showing the different variety of French aircraft during Frances time in WW2.

Fighters/Attackers:
Bloch MB.151/152
Breguet Br.691/693 (Would be a nice assault aircraft for EW)
Caudron C.714 Cyclone (Used by Polish pilots who fought for France)
Hawk 75A
Dewoitine D.520
Loire-Nieuport LN-40 (French navy carrier-born aircraft)
Morane-Saulnier MS.405/406
Potez 63.11
Potez 630, 631, 632, 633 B2, 635 CN2
Vought-Sikorsky SB2U Vindicator (V-156F callsign for France)

Bombers:
Amiot 143
Amiot 354 (would love to see this one in AH)
Bloch MB.200
Bloch MB. 174/5 (Reccon bomber saw limited action)
Farman F.222/223 (First aircraft to bomb Berlin)
Liore Et Olivier LeO 451 (said to be the best bomber in service for France during BoF.)

[Knegel]

Originally posted by Pachy
I think the H-75 is a bit overestimated, because published performance figures are for a plane with less equipment that the typical French configuration. Once you realize that the real-life take-off weight was over 2800 kg, it's starting to look less attractive. Additionally, from what I've heard the higher power settings of later P&W-engined variants (A-2 and A-3) required 100-octane fuel which was not issued to French units flying the H-75. But at least the Curtiss was reliable and easy to maintain...


Yes, but this is the 1-minute take-off power setting, it is not very much significant for technical comparisons in combat environment.


This is the 5-minute WEP setting.

Regarding the positive pilot's outlook on the D.520, one has to realize that most converted from the MS.406 that was very unreliable and performed below official figures. The D.520 did work generally fine, which certainly helped with its popularity

Hi,

the Hawk75 with 100octan was as good as the Spit and 109E up to 4000m, the French Hawk datas show that it was very similar to the BoB Hurri1a up to 4000m.

There was a early DB601A-1 and a late DB601A-1 and a DB601Aa, the early(BoF?) A-1 has 1020PS 5min @ 4,2km, the late A-1 has 1020Ps 5min @ 4,5km, the Aa had 1100PS @ 3,7km.

While the BoF probably the early A-1 got used, while the BoB E-3 and E-4 had the late A-1 and the Aa, though its not entirely clear when and why the LW did choose the A-1 over the Aa(or the other way around).

Greetings,

Knegel

[Angus]

"the Hawk75 with 100octan was as good as the Spit and 109E up to 4000m, the French Hawk datas show that it was very similar to the BoB Hurri1a up to 4000m."
But they ran it on 87 octs in the BoF, AFAIK....

[MiloMorai]

Knegel, was not the Aa an export engine? Would think the Germans put the Aa in their 109s because of production shortfalls of the A engine. ???

[Pachy]

Originally posted by Angus
"the Hawk75 with 100octan was as good as the Spit and 109E up to 4000m, the French Hawk datas show that it was very similar to the BoB Hurri1a up to 4000m."
But they ran it on 87 octs in the BoF, AFAIK....

Additionally, the French CEMA data was obtained with a plane approximately 200 kg lighter than the typical combat configuration, and without the extra drag provided by later applied camo paint.

[Knegel]

Hi Milo,

afaik Butch told that both engines got used by the LW, actually i still dont know the exact different, cause next to the power datas both engines show the same values.
I think the decission to sell the 109 with a better engine than the own airforce got stopped with the outbreak of the war. They introduced the DB601N while BoB, so i doubt they did sell the Aa´s they had.

Angus,
thats why i made the different between the 100octan Hawk and the "french" Hawk, which dont had 100octan fuel.

Pachy,
the datas of the Hawk are still as good as that of the Hurri1a while BoB, below 4000m alt, where the MerlinIII lost much power.

Greetings,

Knegel

[Wmaker]

About the performance of the Hawk75A,

The French CEMA tested H-75 A-1:n with a take off weight of 2680kg. In a climb test they reported a peak climb of 20m/s. That simply isn't physically possible. Considering the weight, with SC-G or SC3-G engines the best possible peak climb could have been 17m/s.

In finnish flight tests there is no weights mentioned but most probably they were tested with normal full takeoff weight around 3000kg. In these tests the peak climb rate was 13-14m/s. With 2680kg weight it would have been around 15-16m/s. Two subtypes, A-2 and A-6, were involved in these tests
(A-6 had had its engine changed to Twin Wasp).

In french testing with Twin Wasp SC-G they achieved top speeds of 490km/h at 4000m and 415km/h on the deck. In Finland the best level speed on the deck achieved in testing was 429km/h (CUw-551). With CUw-557 the top speed at 1500m was 425km/h. With CU-572 (still Twin Wasp powered) the deck speed was even less at around 415km/h and top speed was found from 3000m being slightly under 440km/h.

These values were flown with 87-octane fuel.

In Finland there were lot of discussion about how far from the manufacture specifications the performance was. Even though the Curtiss' own numbers were flown with S3C3-G -engine and with 100-octane fuel, 520km/h at 4650m still sounds very optimistic.

In England A & AEE tested A-4 subtype and it achieved 486km/h at 4300m. The peak climb with 2870kg weight was 13.2m/s.

English pilots did mock combats with the Hawk against the Spitfire (presumably Mk.I) changing pilots back and fourth between fights. When Spitfire attacked a diving Hawk (speed of aboth around 500-650km/h) the Hawk pilot could evade very effectively by rolling. At sppeds above 600km/h Hawk pilot could still fully deflect the ailerons. In Spitfire the same pilots could only make 1/4 - 1/5 of the deflection. When Spitfire attacked the Hawk the Hawk could turn inside the Spitfire and stay there until Spitfire chose to use its speed to disengage. In turning combat at 400km/h speeds Hawk was clearly better. The visibility from the Hawks cockpit was also better.

Source: Jukka Raunio's LENTÄJÄN NÄKÖKULMA II (Pilots Viewvpoint II)

EDIT/Just want to add that in Finland Brewster was considered overall to be the better fighter aircraft. It had very similar top spped as the Cyclone-Hawk and was more maneuverable./EDIT

[Crousader]

Yikes stats and stats and stats....

Should there be a French plane in AH and should it be a D520? Why not...it certainly wouldn't hurt anyone...

but alas, if it doesn't happen we Frenchmen can still do what the French did in the real war...kept fighting and got down with O.P.P.
                                 (Other Peoples Planes)

You can fly Spitfires like the Free French squadrons in England
or Hurricanes like the FF in Africa
They also flew P-40s in Africa
The French flew Tempests, P-47s, P-38s and Soviet planes.
You can still get a French historical perspective and play AH...