Author Topic: So, Sherman VC Firefly.... (Read 6618 times)

Airscrew · « **Reply #45 on:** March 22, 2007, 11:56:34 AM »

http://www.btinternet.com/~ian.a.paterson/equiparmourtanks.htm

I havent found a photo yet... but

Quote

The 75mm gun soon became obsolete and the British re-gunned some of their Shermans with the 17-pdr anti-tank gun, which became known as the Firefly (Left). This gave them a method of knocking out the heavier German tanks at longer range. The Americans used a 76mm version to achieve the same. To accommodate the larger gun the coaxial machine gun was removed and a larger counter weight fitted to the back of the turret. Towards the end of the war the later models also had the hull machine gun removed so more of the larger 17-pdr ammunition could be carried. To provide protection against infantry some tank commanders often mounted a 0.30" Browning or BESA machine gun on the turret.

storch · « **Reply #46 on:** March 22, 2007, 11:59:16 AM »

every source I have indicates a .303 cal (7.62mm) mg with the exact same mounting you show for the M2. but that should really be of little matter whether you decide to retain it or not. it's great you guys decided to finally include the ubiquetous sherman in at least one iteration.

SkyRock · « **Reply #47 on:** March 22, 2007, 12:01:10 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Pyro
Belvedere is also a Polish vodka.

WRT the .50, as I said it is listed in most specs. That's not in dispute. Whether the spec accurately reflects the tank that went forth into the field is the question.

I am guessing that because the gun was so big it had to be on its side to be loaded that there was no room for anyone to man the turret mounted .50cal. Hence the reason why no pics of it can be found. The .30 cal was also done away with to make room for the longer shells of the main gun! The rate of fire was half that of regular Sherman's due to the cramped quaters of the firefly! This is just an opinion!:aok

Mark

Gianlupo · « **Reply #48 on:** March 22, 2007, 12:24:11 PM »

Thanks for answer, Pyro!

Blooz · « **Reply #49 on:** March 22, 2007, 12:31:42 PM »

D-Day to Berlin by Terry Wise
M4 Sherman by George Forty
Janes World Armored Fighting Vehicles by Chris Foss

No pics of a Firefly with a .50 on top (or any other British vehicle).

I did see one pic in "D-Day to Berlin" with a .30 mounted at the commanders position but this is obviously a rare crew modification as none of the other pics that I can see have any machine gun at all on the Firefly.

E25280 · « **Reply #50 on:** March 22, 2007, 01:01:20 PM »

I've been combing through a World War II Encyclopedia. What I find interesting is there are a lot of pics of Shermans without the .50 cal. It makes me wonder if they were often removed?

There is one picture of three Shermans taken from perhaps six stories up. The caption reads "American Firefly tanks roll through a Normandy town." Although I thought the Firefly was purely a British variant, the gun looks long enough to be a 17 lbr and the turret looks to have the same counterweight. At any rate, they appear to have pintle mounted MGs, although admittedly due to the distance it is hard to be certain if the small lines are in fact an MG or some other aparatus.

In another volume it lists the "American/British Sherman M4A4/VC Firefly Tank" and gives some specs including a "one .5-inch Browning machine gun".

Not sure that adds anything to the discussion . . .

E25280 · « **Reply #51 on:** March 22, 2007, 01:15:10 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Pyro
A photo of a restoration doesn't count. It's not a question of whether a .50 could be equipped, it's a question of whether they did in service. Of all the photos I've seen of them in action, I have yet to see one with a .50 mounted. Without some additional corroboration, I'm inclined to pull it.

Just a question then . . . do you have photos of a Tiger with a pintle mounted MG? I don't recall ever seeing a photo of one, and the Tiger pics I've come across today while searching for the Firefly MG do not show any either. Neither do most of the IVs, although one pic of a knocked out IV has what looks like a mount for one. Coupled with the many photos of Shermans without AAMGs I've seen today, I'm starting to wonder if they either were much more rare than I always thought, or if they were sometimes stowed away somewhere else on the tank to prevent exposure to the elements when not in use.

My opinion (as if it held any weight) would be to leave the AA MG on all of them even without the photographic evidence if the source documentation supports that they were available.

Bronk · « **Reply #52 on:** March 22, 2007, 01:17:31 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by E25280
I've been combing through a World War II Encyclopedia. What I find interesting is there are a lot of pics of Shermans without the .50 cal. It makes me wonder if they were often removed?

There is one picture of three Shermans taken from perhaps six stories up. The caption reads "American Firefly tanks roll through a Normandy town." Although I thought the Firefly was purely a British variant, the gun looks long enough to be a 17 lbr and the turret looks to have the same counterweight. At any rate, they appear to have pintle mounted MGs, although admittedly due to the distance it is hard to be certain if the small lines are in fact an MG or some other aparatus.

In another volume it lists the "American/British Sherman M4A4/VC Firefly Tank" and gives some specs including a "one .5-inch Browning machine gun".

Not sure that adds anything to the discussion . . .

Easy8 main gun looks similar I believe.

Bronk

E25280 · « **Reply #53 on:** March 22, 2007, 01:24:07 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SkyRock
I am guessing that because the gun was so big it had to be on its side to be loaded that there was no room for anyone to man the turret mounted .50cal. Hence the reason why no pics of it can be found. The .30 cal was also done away with to make room for the longer shells of the main gun! The rate of fire was half that of regular Sherman's due to the cramped quaters of the firefly! This is just an opinion!:aok

Mark

For clarification, the .30 cal that was done away with was the hull gun. AFAIK, the .30 cal coaxle MG remained.

Airscrew · « **Reply #54 on:** March 22, 2007, 01:33:15 PM »

ok found a pic, but it looks like a .30

http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWII/Sherman/

not sure if this is a Firefly...

E25280 · « **Reply #55 on:** March 22, 2007, 01:41:52 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Bronk
Easy8 main gun looks similar I believe.

Bronk

I don't discount that the tanks could be mis-identified. But if memory serves, the Easy 8 turret was a bit oblong in shape as the counterweight was integrated into the turret design. These appear to be the more round "standard shape" turret with a boxy-looking counterweight added. If not for the clearly shown US marking on the top-rear hull, I would have thought Firefly right away.

But as I said, the picture is from far away, so I wouldn't bet my life on it (or five bucks for that matter).

E25280 · « **Reply #56 on:** March 22, 2007, 01:43:45 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Airscrew
ok found a pic, but it looks like a .30

http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWII/Sherman/

not sure if this is a Firefly...

The bottom one appears to me to be an Easy 8. The top one looks like a Firefly.

Pyro · « **Reply #57 on:** March 22, 2007, 01:48:03 PM »

I can confirm that the bottom pic is not a Firefly. 3 quick giveaways are the single hatch, hull gun, and the shape of the muzzle brake.

Fencer51 · « **Reply #58 on:** March 22, 2007, 01:55:01 PM »

I have dug through about 6 books and found a couple dozen pictures of Fireflies and have seen no machine guns mounted on the turret.

I would also like to point out that I have seen alot more than 24 pictures of Tiger I's and none of them have a turret mounted machine gun either.

Like wise the MkIV but there I have only seen a good dozen pictures of that tank.

So, if you feel required to remove it from the Firefly, I might suggest you should consider removing it from the other two tanks as well.

hubsonfire · « **Reply #59 on:** March 22, 2007, 02:00:48 PM »

Did the turrets all have whatever lugs or receivers in place required to mount the guns, whether or not the upper MG was used?

Pyro, what's that about a single hatch in the lower pic?

Author Topic: So, Sherman VC Firefly.... (Read 6618 times)

storch