Author Topic: F-4 Phantom II (Read 2837 times)

Serenity · « **on:** March 25, 2007, 05:48:55 PM »

Alright, well, as some of you know, when I grow fond of an aircraft, I become obsessed, trying to learn everything I can about it. Well, this month its the F-4 Phantom. Fortunately several years ago my cousin gave me a book about F-4 phantoms in the Vietnam war. Unfortunately this is more about tactics and less about data. So, for all of you who know this aircraft well, I have several questions for you:

First off, power and fuel. I know what the Phantom's max speed is with afterburner (1,606.398 mph, a world record) but how many MINUTES did fuel last at afterburner? Basically, these questions are about MINUTES of fuel, not miles you can go. I know THAT already. So, fuel questions:

At FULL AFTERBURNER:
How many minutes did fuel last? (With a full internal tank, no external)

At MILITARY POWER:
What speed did MILITARY power provide?
How many minutes did fuel last? (With a full internal tank, no external)

At MAX. CRUISE:
What speed did the MAX CRUISE power setting give?
How many minutes did fuel last? (With a full internal tank, no external)

And, with the standard 600 liter centerline tank, how many more minutes of fuel did you get at all 3 settings? and with each outboard 370 liter tank?

Next, weapons. Since the F-4 was designed as a fighter, Ive got a lot of sources for A2A weapons loadouts, but remarcably even with google I can find next to nothing about bombs! So, what was the maximum NUMBER OF BOMBS (NOT maximum WEIGHT of ordenance, because a classic example, the B-17 could carry a lot more WEIGHT but due to the physical dimensions of the bombs, it only carried a limited number) the F-4 carried WHILE carrying external fuel and Sidewinders? Without external fuel? And how were the bombs mounted?

Thank you very much in advance. I know these seem quite obscure but beleive it or not these questions have kept me up at night for almost a week now. lol. I am actually haviung trouble sleeping because I dont know this!

edit: Also, what other sizes of external fuel tanks did the F-4 use, and how many more minutes of fuel and miles did these provide at the above power settings?

nirvana · « **Reply #1 on:** March 25, 2007, 06:04:28 PM »

Well I don't know much but I'm going to call your 1,606.398 "world record" a tad bit false. There must be more to it or the book is a little dated. Good luck on your search.

Indeed that speed record was broken several years later according to Wikipedia. There are also the other stats on the F4 there. As always with Wikipedia, take the info with a grain of salt and explore it a little more in depth.

* Maximum speed: Mach 2.23 (1,472 mph, 2,370 km/h) at 40,000 ft (12,190 m)
* Cruise speed: 506 knots (585 mph, 940 km/h)
* Combat radius: 367 nm (422 mi, 680 km)
* Ferry range: 1,403 nm (1,615 mi, 2,600 km) with 3 external fuel tanks
* Service ceiling: 60,000 ft (18,300 m)
* Rate of climb: 41,300 ft/min (210 m/s)
* Wing loading: 78 lb/ft² (383 kg/m²)
* Thrust/weight: 0.86
* Lift-to-drag ratio: 8.58
* Takeoff roll: 4,490 ft (1,370 m) at 53,814 lb (24,410 kg)
* Landing roll: 3,680 ft (1,120 m) at 36,831 lb (16,706 kg)

Serenity · « **Reply #2 on:** March 25, 2007, 06:08:05 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by nirvana
Well I don't know much but I'm going to call your 1,606.398 "world record" a tad bit false. There must be more to it or the book is a little dated. Good luck on your search.

That record WAS broken in 1997. But at its time it WAS a world record. One of 16 (Accoridng to my data) set by the F-4 during its years.

Ball · « **Reply #3 on:** March 25, 2007, 06:27:32 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Serenity
That record WAS broken in 1997. But at its time it WAS a world record. One of 16 (Accoridng to my data) set by the F-4 during its years.

maybe a record over some sort of circuit, plenty of planes are faster than that.

Krusty · « **Reply #4 on:** March 25, 2007, 06:47:26 PM »

*cough*SR-71*cough*...

*cough*Mig-31*cough*

Sorry, I must do something about this cough of mine.

Serenity · « **Reply #5 on:** March 25, 2007, 06:51:57 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
*cough*SR-71*cough*...

*cough*Mig-31*cough*

Sorry, I must do something about this cough of mine.

Im just going by the data I have, I thought it sounded wrong too, but hey, im no expert. "Set an ultimate speed record of 1,606.398mph, a record that wasnt broken until 1997" perhaps its a fighter record, ruling out the Sr-71, but then theres the MiG-31. Perhaps ball is right. I dont know, it didnt give details as to the conditions. But, does anyone have the answers to my questions above?

Serenity · « **Reply #6 on:** March 25, 2007, 06:54:01 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by nirvana
Well I don't know much but I'm going to call your 1,606.398 "world record" a tad bit false. There must be more to it or the book is a little dated. Good luck on your search.

Indeed that speed record was broken several years later according to Wikipedia. There are also the other stats on the F4 there. As always with Wikipedia, take the info with a grain of salt and explore it a little more in depth.

* Maximum speed: Mach 2.23 (1,472 mph, 2,370 km/h) at 40,000 ft (12,190 m)
* Cruise speed: 506 knots (585 mph, 940 km/h)
* Combat radius: 367 nm (422 mi, 680 km)
* Ferry range: 1,403 nm (1,615 mi, 2,600 km) with 3 external fuel tanks
* Service ceiling: 60,000 ft (18,300 m)
* Rate of climb: 41,300 ft/min (210 m/s)
* Wing loading: 78 lb/ft² (383 kg/m²)
* Thrust/weight: 0.86
* Lift-to-drag ratio: 8.58
* Takeoff roll: 4,490 ft (1,370 m) at 53,814 lb (24,410 kg)
* Landing roll: 3,680 ft (1,120 m) at 36,831 lb (16,706 kg)

I dont even look at any google results for wikipedia. But that bit of data DOES correspond with the info I have, answering my question about cruise speed. Im still looking for minutes of fuel info... Not having any luck...

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #7 on:** March 25, 2007, 07:16:39 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Ball
maybe a record over some sort of circuit, plenty of planes are faster than that.

It was done on a 15 mile circuit.

Here is some other info on the records the Phantom II broke.

On 06 December 1959 Commander L.E. Flint, piloting a McDonnell F4H-1 Phantom II powered by two GE J-79 engines bettered the existing world altitude record by reaching 98,560 feet over Edwards Air Force Base.

On 05 September 1961 an F4H-1 Phantom II, piloted by Lieutenant Colonel Thomas H. Miller, USMC, set a new world record for 500 kilometers over the triangular course at Edwards AF Base with a speed of 1216.78 mph.

On 25 September 1961 an F4H-1 Phantom II, piloted by Commander John F. Davis, averaged 1390.21 mph for 100 kilometers over a closed circuit course, bettering the existing world record for the distance by more than 200 mph.

On 25 May 1961 three F4H Phantom II fighters competing for the Bendix Trophy bettered the existing record for transcontinental flight from Los Angeles to New York. The winning team of Lieutenant R. F. Gordon, pilot, and Lieutenant (jg) B. R. Young, RIO, averaged 870 mph on the 2,421.4 mile flight and set a new record of 2 hours, 47 minutes.

A Phantom set a world absolute speed record of 1,606.505 mph at Edwards on 22 November 1961.

In March 1962 new world climb records to 9,000 and 12,000 meters were established at NAS Brunswick, Maine, when an F4H-1 piloted by Lieutenant Colonel W. C. McGraw, USMC, reached those altitudes from a standing start in 61.62 and 77.15 seconds, respectively.

The F4H-1 continued its time-to-climb records at NAS Brunswick as Lieutenant Commander D. W. Nordberg piloted the Phantom II to 15,000 meters altitude in 114.54 seconds.

Lieutenant Commander F. Taylor Brown piloted the F4H-1 Phantom II at NAS Point Mugu, to a new world time-to-climb record for 20,000 meters with a time of 178.5 seconds.

ack-ack

Krusty · « **Reply #8 on:** March 25, 2007, 07:24:42 PM »

Although, most of those records were stripped down versions.

I know that a specially stripped down F-15 broke the time to alt records later (of course, it came after the F-4), and I think it's standard practice to lighten the frame or remove dead weight in circumstances like this.

Who needs a 5 mode look-down shoot-down radar slowing your climb by 30 seconds, eh?

Viking · « **Reply #9 on:** March 25, 2007, 07:34:34 PM »

The Phantom's records were broken by the MiG-25 (the MiG-31 is slower than the 25), then by the F-15, then by the MiG-29, and who knows what plane currently holds most of the records? The F-22 perhaps? Eurofighter?

I don't think the SR-71 was ever used for official record-breaking because its performance was classified, but obviously it is faster than all planes mentioned so far. I don't think it can beat the MiG-29 in the climb though.

Krusty · « **Reply #10 on:** March 25, 2007, 07:57:48 PM »

I think the Mig31 Foxbat was way faster than the Mig25. It was the Mach2.5 intercepter. Short duration but high speed.

Hornet33 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 25, 2007, 08:17:22 PM »

I have a book here that has some pretty good data on the Phantom. The following is what I have found dealing with ordiance loads. I'll try and answer your questions.

Max bomb load for an F-4 Phantom is 22 500lb bombs. Centerline bomb rack with 6 weapons, inboard wing pylons with 3 weapons each, outboard wing pylons with 6 weapons each. Strangely enough the outboard wing pylon attach points are rated for a heavier weight than the inboard pylons were. This is explained as the outboard pylons were designed to carry an external fuel tank and the inboard pylons were initialy designed to only carry 2 AIM-9 missiles in the original interceptor role.

With 3 external tanks max load was 6 500lb bombs carried on the inboard pylons or 12 250lb bombs or 2 1000lb or 2000lb bombs. Mind that the number of bombs is divided between the 2 pylons so for the 500lbrs it would be 3 on each wing.

The Phantom was equiped with 5 external hardpoints, 1 centerline, 2 per wing, and 4 semi recessed bays under the fuselage for the AIM-7 Sparrow missile.

The first production variant to be fitted with an onboard cannon was the F4E armed with the M61 20mm Vulcan cannon with 639 rounds of ammunition. The first Phantom to have this weapon installed however was an F4B model #62-12200 and that aircraft served as a flying testbed for the Phantom series and is now a museum exhibit at Wright Patterson AFB.

Fuel consumption data is highly varried due to the many different types of engines that have been used in the Phantom. I've been able to find evidence that over the years the Phantom has been equiped with 7 different versions of the GE J-79, 3 versions of the Rolls-Royce Spey Turbofan, and a handfull of Phantoms were equiped with the Pratt & Whitney 1120. With each succesive type of engine performance increased in fuel consumption, range, and exceleration.

Sorce for this info can be found in The Great Book of Modern Warplanes published by Portland House printed in 1987.

Hope this helps.

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #12 on:** March 25, 2007, 08:50:04 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Viking
The Phantom's records were broken by the MiG-25 (the MiG-31 is slower than the 25), then by the F-15, then by the MiG-29, and who knows what plane currently holds most of the records? The F-22 perhaps? Eurofighter?

I don't think the SR-71 was ever used for official record-breaking because its performance was classified, but obviously it is faster than all planes mentioned so far. I don't think it can beat the MiG-29 in the climb though.

1965
YF12A Interceptor (interceptor version of the SR-71)
Absolute Altitude: 80,257.86 ft (24,390 meters)... YF-12A # 60-6934

Absolute Speed Over a Straight Course: 2,070.101 mph...YF-12A #60-6936

Absolute Speed Over a 500km Closed Course: 1,688.889 mph...YF-12A #60-6936

Absolute Speed Over a 1,000km Closed Course: 1,643.041 mph... YF-12A #60-6936

September 01, 1974
SR-71A #61-17972
New York to London (World Record-Speed Over a Recognized Course): Distance: 3,461.53 statute miles...Time: 1hr 54 min 56.4 secs. Average Speed 1,806.95 statute mph.

September 13, 1974
SR-71A #61-17972
London to Los Angeles (World Record-Speed Over a Recognized Course): Distance: 5,446.87 statute miles...Time: 3hrs 47min 39secs. Average Speed: 1,435.59 mph

March 06, 1990
SR-71A #61-17972
West Coast to East Coast of USA (National Record-Speed Over a Recognized Course): Coast to Coast Distance: 2,404.05 statute miles...Time: 1 hr 07 min 53.69 secs...Average Speed: 2,124.51 mph

Los Angeles To Washington D.C. (World Record): Distance: 2,299.67 statute miles...Time: 1 hr 04 min 19.89 secs...Average Speed: 2,144.83 mph

St Louis To Cincinnati (World Record): Distance: 311.44 statute miles...Time: 8 mins 31.97 secs...Average Speed: 2,189.94 mph

Kansas City To Washington D.C. (World Record): Distance: 942.08 statute miles...Time: 25 mins 58.53 secs...Average Speed: 2176.08 mph

On November 20, 1965 an A-12 Blackbird exceeded Mach 3.2 and a sustained altitude of 90,000 feet. A stripped down, highly modified Soviet Mig-25 did break some of the Blackbirds records, however the SR-71 regained those records in July, 1976.

The 1989 Guinness Book states that a record airspeed of 2,193.167 mph (980 m/s) was achieved by a Lockheed SR-71-A

The SR-71 "Blackbird" holds the official Air Speed Record for a manned airbreathing jet aircraft with a speed of 3,529.56 km/h (2,188 mph). It was capable of taking off and landing unassisted on conventional runways. The record was set on 28 July 1976 by Eldon W. Joersz near Beale Air Force Base

ack-ack

Rino · « **Reply #13 on:** March 25, 2007, 09:09:49 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hornet33
I have a book here that has some pretty good data on the Phantom. The following is what I have found dealing with ordiance loads. I'll try and answer your questions.

Max bomb load for an F-4 Phantom is 22 500lb bombs. Centerline bomb rack with 6 weapons, inboard wing pylons with 3 weapons each, outboard wing pylons with 6 weapons each. Strangely enough the outboard wing pylon attach points are rated for a heavier weight than the inboard pylons were. This is explained as the outboard pylons were designed to carry an external fuel tank and the inboard pylons were initialy designed to only carry 2 AIM-9 missiles in the original interceptor role.

With 3 external tanks max load was 6 500lb bombs carried on the inboard pylons or 12 250lb bombs or 2 1000lb or 2000lb bombs. Mind that the number of bombs is divided between the 2 pylons so for the 500lbrs it would be 3 on each wing.

The Phantom was equiped with 5 external hardpoints, 1 centerline, 2 per wing, and 4 semi recessed bays under the fuselage for the AIM-7 Sparrow missile.

The first production variant to be fitted with an onboard cannon was the F4E armed with the M61 20mm Vulcan cannon with 639 rounds of ammunition. The first Phantom to have this weapon installed however was an F4B model #62-12200 and that aircraft served as a flying testbed for the Phantom series and is now a museum exhibit at Wright Patterson AFB.

Fuel consumption data is highly varried due to the many different types of engines that have been used in the Phantom. I've been able to find evidence that over the years the Phantom has been equiped with 7 different versions of the GE J-79, 3 versions of the Rolls-Royce Spey Turbofan, and a handfull of Phantoms were equiped with the Pratt & Whitney 1120. With each succesive type of engine performance increased in fuel consumption, range, and exceleration.

Sorce for this info can be found in The Great Book of Modern Warplanes published by Portland House printed in 1987.

Hope this helps.

If the centerline tank was mounted the MER rack could not be fitted.
At Moody, we used F-4Es with the two 370 gallon droptanks. We also
usually mounted a Pave Spike laser designator pod in the forward left
AIM-7 mount, so only 3 Sparrows could be carried.

Being basically mud-movers in the early 80s, we didn't mount the
Sparrows much, but always had the 4 Sidewinder rails mounted above
the inboard triple ejector racks.

This is completely anecdotal, but I had pilots tell me that both droptanks
would be empty after takeoff and climbout from using the burner. Since we
had the air-refueling port behind the WSO's pit, it wasn't a big concern.

Btw, go fast mode was really only used to catch something, or run
away from trouble. Oh yeah, on takeoff too as it was the heaviest the
bird would be all mission.

I'm curious about the usefulness of Mach 2+ sprints for interceptors...
the AN/APQ-120 I worked on would break lock with a 2700 mph closure
rate. Of course only a lunatic would try to toss a missile at those speeds
anyway. The AIM-7 had to be blown off the bird and the AIM-9 was very
close to both the wing and any ordnance on the rack.

Amazing the garbage you retain after 23 years out, huh?

P.S. Just remembered that the E model carried an extra dorsal fuel tank
by the tail compared to the earlier models. They also deleted the Ram
Air Turbine emergency generator in the nose that the earlier C
and D models carried, so the weight must have moved aft a bit.

Serenity · « **Reply #14 on:** March 25, 2007, 09:38:49 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hornet33
I have a book here that has some pretty good data on the Phantom. The following is what I have found dealing with ordiance loads. I'll try and answer your questions.

Max bomb load for an F-4 Phantom is 22 500lb bombs. Centerline bomb rack with 6 weapons, inboard wing pylons with 3 weapons each, outboard wing pylons with 6 weapons each. Strangely enough the outboard wing pylon attach points are rated for a heavier weight than the inboard pylons were. This is explained as the outboard pylons were designed to carry an external fuel tank and the inboard pylons were initialy designed to only carry 2 AIM-9 missiles in the original interceptor role.

With 3 external tanks max load was 6 500lb bombs carried on the inboard pylons or 12 250lb bombs or 2 1000lb or 2000lb bombs. Mind that the number of bombs is divided between the 2 pylons so for the 500lbrs it would be 3 on each wing.

The Phantom was equiped with 5 external hardpoints, 1 centerline, 2 per wing, and 4 semi recessed bays under the fuselage for the AIM-7 Sparrow missile.

The first production variant to be fitted with an onboard cannon was the F4E armed with the M61 20mm Vulcan cannon with 639 rounds of ammunition. The first Phantom to have this weapon installed however was an F4B model #62-12200 and that aircraft served as a flying testbed for the Phantom series and is now a museum exhibit at Wright Patterson AFB.

Fuel consumption data is highly varried due to the many different types of engines that have been used in the Phantom. I've been able to find evidence that over the years the Phantom has been equiped with 7 different versions of the GE J-79, 3 versions of the Rolls-Royce Spey Turbofan, and a handfull of Phantoms were equiped with the Pratt & Whitney 1120. With each succesive type of engine performance increased in fuel consumption, range, and exceleration.

Sorce for this info can be found in The Great Book of Modern Warplanes published by Portland House printed in 1987.

Hope this helps.

THANKS! Finally some useful information! Now, again, I dont know much about this aircraft, I just started studying, but as far as the fuel consumption, any data you have for any engine. If you have multiple engines, id say the most modern engine. Thanks again SO MUCH! I might just get some sleep tonight...