Woh is Me; the Poor Reputation of the 39th P

[eskimo2]

The P-39 sucks.  Compared to the planes remaining in the second round it is a poor performing dog of a plane.  The early D models have three very mismatched gun types with three very different gun solutions.  The 37mm gun was not terribly effective; the plane probably would have stood a better chance without it or with a single 50 or 20mm cannon in its place.  The Aircobra also has a reputation for a bad flat-spin characteristic (proved recoverable with proper technique, however).  Finally, the P-39 has a bad reputation that it still can’t shake even after 2/3 of a century.  It was such a poor plane that the United States gave half of them to Russia; our pilots were not expendable enough to fly the P-39.  The P-39 was designed in an era when America did not rule the skies.

The MA types like uberness in a plane; there’s nothing wrong with wanting a plane that can hold its own and fill a performance/armament niche in the MA.  Most of the planes remaining in Round 2 will be fun to fly; they will have at least one performance/armament edge on most of the planes they encounter in the MA.  It’s hard to get much done with even a good early war plane in a late war main arena.  Early war planes only stand a chance against other early war planes.  Is there even a place for them in Aces High II?  Are enough Aces High II players interested in the early war to vote in any early war plane?

I’ve always been somewhat of a WWII aviation buff.  I fully bought into the belief that the P-39 was a loser of a plane; it was just pathetic and wrong.  12 years ago, however, I met, fell in love with and married the daughter of a P-39/P-63 pilot.  My wife’s father has become my best friend and lives with us. I’ve read more about these planes and now feel that much of the poor reputation that has been attributed to the P-39 was and still is unjust.  Of the US Army’s 5 fighters used in WWII, the P-39 was the earliest; it shouldn’t be compared to the P-38, P-47 & P-51.  It was mixing it up with the Axis when the P-38, P-47 & P-51 were still being developed; when we had to use what we had in stock.  I’ve flown the P-40B in the MA; it sucks worse than any P-39 model possibly could.  Long ago there was a game called Warbirds.  The P-39 was available (P-39D, I think); in the Historical Arena it was a chore to fight with against the

On the good side, the P-39 was faster than the P-40; it was also faster than most early and mid war Russian fighters.  On January 8th, 1941, an Aircobra set the world airspeed record of 620 mph (in a dive); it had a strong airframe.  The P-39 plugs into early war Pacific scenarios and early/mid war Russian front scenarios.  In a pinch the Aircobra could be in the Mediterranean used by the Italians (Allied – post 43) The P-39 performed well at low altitude.  In Aces High II the P-39 will not make a good-safe B & Z fighter.  It may, however, make a good little low alt furballer.

Vote P-39

[FiLtH]

"It’s hard to get much done with even a good early war plane in a late war main arena. Early war planes only stand a chance against other early war planes. Is there even a place for them in Aces High II? Are enough Aces High II players interested in the early war to vote in any early war plane?"

    It's the challenge. I guess it comes down to playing for the kill, or playing for the fight.

[Saxman]

Incidentally, the US DID produce a variant armed with a 20mm cannon in the prop hub. The P-400 was an export variant, and also represented the USAAF during the first few months of Guadalcanal.

IIRC, the 20mm was no more effective than the 37mm.

[eskimo2]

Originally posted by Saxman
Incidentally, the US DID produce a variant armed with a 20mm cannon in the prop hub. The P-400 was an export variant, and also represented the USAAF during the first few months of Guadalcanal.

IIRC, the 20mm was no more effective than the 37mm.

Yea, the British bought the P-400s with a 60 round Hispano.  The 20mm is much better than the 37 mm, but they also swapped the 2 X 50s for a bunch of worthless 303s.  2 X 50s with a Hispano in the nose would be the best option IMO.

[tedrbr]

IIRC, the Russian exported P-39, which accounted for over half the total produced (Russia also took nearly ALL of the P-63 KingCobras produced later), usually came with the 20mm and .50's mounted in it.

Also, IIRC, the flat spin was not recoverable....period.   It was more pronounced when no ammo was carried, or was expended, so they would carry ballast while ferrying the plane, and expended ammunition cases were kept on-board the plane to provide ballast while in flight.

Second highest scoring Allied Ace flew P-39's (and later P-63's KingCobras).

I think the P-39 would hold it's own down low in LW, certainly it would well in EW and MW.  Also nice addition to eastern front senerios.

Still believe, if P-39 is added, should be with the Russian plane set.  Meant far more to them than the U.S. during WWII.  

Not sure if P-39 well know enough by general AHII population to carry a popular vote though.

[eskimo2]

Originally posted in:
Aircobra Advantage: The Flying Cannon - By Rick Mitchell
Page 26
P-39 Spin Testing

The P-39’s spin characteristics became a major concern for many Aircobra pilots.  Wright Field sent an urgent telegram to Bell Aircraft requesting a demonstration of the spin recovery of either a P-39D-1 or a P-39D-2 Aircobra after four P-39s in one group had been lost due to the pilot’s inability to recover their Aircobra from flat spins.  Bell Aircraft conducted a series of nine spin tests during October 1942 using different balance and weight configurations that met or exceeded the Army’s requirements.  The spin tests were witnessed from the air by the Army Air Force’s resident officer.  The results were judged adequate, with the test P-39’s spin recoveries being “prompt and decisive”.  It was concluded that no basic deficiencies existed in the Aircobra’s design that prohibited recovery from spins.  The test results did note that the P-39 could be unforgiving in a flat spin if the proper spin recovery techniques were not followed.  They noted there must be adequate altitude to recover the aircraft as well as having the Aircobra properly loaded for balancing.

I think the Bell test pilots were probably a lot better at spin recovery than most Army pilots.

A squadron mate of my father-in-law bailed out of a P-39 while in a flat spin. His P-39 pancaked onto the desert and he landed right on top of it (in his chute)!

[FrodeMk3]

The P-39 would make a good B-n-Z plane, with that listed Dive speed(620 mph.) What made the cannon worse than the 20mm hispano armed P-400, though, was it's tendency to jam in ACM's. Now, keep in mind, that since several other guns would do this(The 20mm Gondola guns on the 109's were known to jam, I've read) Then we would have to ask ourselves if it would in AH, Where NO gun jams were modeled.

     Also, the P-39's historical record as a fighter in the Pacific could be attributed to pilot training and tactics, which were being developed and did'nt really exceed that of Japan until about 1943.

I would also add, that if the Russians produced a 59 kill ace(Alexandyr Pokryshin) in the P-39, then maybe the U.S. was doing something wrong?

And finally, I might add, Spin recovery is a chore in alotta planes, which are optimised for High-speed High alt flight.(A Pitts will recover from a Flat spin inna Heartbeat...But it's not designed to fly 350-450mph. at 20-30k, either.)

[eskimo2]

Heres a couple of good paragraphs about the Soviet's use of the P-39:

Several of the Red Air Force's ranking aces flew the P-39 for a major portion of their combat sorties. The top ace in the P-39 and number four overall was Guards Major Gregoriy Rechkalov, who shot down 50 of his total 56 kills while flying a P-39. Guards Colonel Aleksandr Pokryshkin, who finished the war as the number two Soviet ace with 59 individual and 6 shared kills, reportedly flew the P-39 for 48 of his kills. Another high scorer in the P-39 was Guards Major Dmitriy Glinka, who destroyed 20 German aircraft in 40 aerial engagements in the summer of 1943, and finished the war with an even 50 kills, 41 of them while flying the P-39. Third-ranked Soviet ace Guards Major Nikolay Gulaev transitioned to the P-39 in early August 1943 with 16 individual and 2 shared kills. He flew his last combat sortie on 14 August 1944 (ordered to attend higher military schooling), leaving the battlefield with an additional 41 individual victories and 1 shared kill after just over one year in his P-39.

Why was the P-39, which achieved so little air combat success in other theaters, so effective on the Eastern Front? The answer to this question lies in the nature of the air war itself on that front. Neither the Germans nor the Soviets engaged in high-altitude, long-range, strategic bombing. The bulk of Soviet war industry had been moved east of the Ural mountains, beyond the range of the Luftwaffe. German medium level and dive bombers went out every day, escorted by Bf-109s and FW-190s, to find and attack Soviet Army ground units. These bombers, and by necessity their escorting fighters, flew at altitudes well within the high performance envelope of the P-39-under 15,000 feet. The P-39, with its nose armament alone, had devastating air-to-air firepower. A hit on a German bomber with a single 37mm round was frequently sufficient to disable or destroy it. The Red Air Force compensated for the P-39's short range by locating their tactical airfields extremely close to the front line-often within artillery range. And during surge periods, when German air activity was intense, Soviet P-39 pilots were known to fly five and even six or more sorties in a single day.


http://www.acepilots.com/planes/p39_airacobra.html

[PK1Mw]

It's not the fact that the P39 sucks.. its the fact that we're getting 1 plane, and to a lot of people it's a waste of a single introduction. If there are/were going to be more than 1 plane released, then fine, great addition, but if there is to be only 1 plane introduced, it's a big waste.

Perfect example would be to look at the yakt and hurri2D, they are hardly flown. They pretty much have the same load out as the P39 does, which shunds a lot of people away from them. Why waste a single plane release on a plane that hardly anyone will fly, once the curiousity wears off, when we could put something like the 25 or 26 into the game which will be used a little more?

Like I said, if there's going to be more than 1 plane added to the game, by all means, P39 would be a great addition to the game. But IMO it is a bad idea to waste a single plane release on that particular plane, especially not knowing which version we're getting for sure.

[FrodeMk3]

PK1Mw, the same 'Hangar Queen' argument is being used for both the A-26 and the B-25. Really, we need to see ALL the vote contestants in the game to see which would be used, and which would'nt.

[Tilt]

Originally posted by tedrbr

Second highest scoring Allied Ace flew P-39's (and later P-63's KingCobras).
 

Are you sure that Pokryshkin went on to fly Kingcobras

king cobra vvs regiments

888iap
781iap
147iap(1946)
17iap (claimed the one and only P63 kill of WWII on 15th august agin a
ki27 or ki43)

Pokryshkin was in charge of a Division by late 44 (9GIAD) which (in the main) converterd to la7's although he retained his P39N white 100. Or so I thought.

Ant way AFAIK none of the above regiments were in 9GIAD

[Tilt]

Originally posted by eskimo2
Heres a couple of good paragraphs about the Soviet's use of the P-39:


Why was the P-39, which achieved so little air combat success in other theaters, so effective on the Eastern Front? The answer to this question lies in the nature of the air war itself on that front.

 

I think you will also find it is down to the tactical brilliance of Pokryshkin and his ability to train and lead those about him.  He "wrote the VVS Book" on how vvs regiments should use the P39 against superior aircraft.

Just as her had done earlier with the utterly out classed Mig 3 .

[Helm]

It allways puzzles me when sombody suggests a new airplane why so many,  many people come out against it.  You will hear coments like:

"It wont revolutionise the MA" ??? ....does anybody really think that the person suggesting a P39 thinks it is going to turn the game on its ear?? ...give me a break


"We have other planes in the plane set that are the same"...so many people say this ....stupidist thing I have every heard ....if the planes are the same they will look the same...have the same motor....same guns...etc etc ...similar performance  does NOT= same ...get a clue

The Fact is simple...if it served in WW2 i'd like a chance to fly it ....and I'm sick and tired of hearing people tell me why a certain plane should not be included .......more dumb stuff

When i suggested a Mig-3...i got to hear all this garbage AND MORE!

Your Desire for a P39 should be supported by all of us...anybody who thinks that ANY WW2 plane Should NOT be in the plane set ...is a morron

yet the bullitin board bullies will log in and tell you why the plane you like is junk .....go away Bullies ...you are boring us all to tears!!

[Kweassa]

yet the bullitin board bullies will log in and tell you why the plane you like is junk .....go away Bullies ...you are boring us all to tears!!

 I guess some people just don't understand, when we say "...but I don't want a better plane, I want this plane".

[humble]

Originally posted by FrodeMk3
The P-39 would make a good B-n-Z plane, with that listed Dive speed(620 mph.) What made the cannon worse than the 20mm hispano armed P-400, though, was it's tendency to jam in ACM's. Now, keep in mind, that since several other guns would do this(The 20mm Gondola guns on the 109's were known to jam, I've read) Then we would have to ask ourselves if it would in AH, Where NO gun jams were modeled.

     Also, the P-39's historical record as a fighter in the Pacific could be attributed to pilot training and tactics, which were being developed and did'nt really exceed that of Japan until about 1943.

I would also add, that if the Russians produced a 59 kill ace(Alexandyr Pokryshin) in the P-39, then maybe the U.S. was doing something wrong?

And finally, I might add, Spin recovery is a chore in alotta planes, which are optimised for High-speed High alt flight.(A Pitts will recover from a Flat spin inna Heartbeat...But it's not designed to fly 350-450mph. at 20-30k, either.)

The P-39 was recoverable from a flat spin (Bob Hoover was test pilot)...he also happened to feel it was an exceptionally good plane. The Pitts is not recoverable from a flat spin. One went down in FL just a few years ago with a very experienced pilot from close to 10,000....he was radio all the way dwon trying to work thru it....

I think the P-39 will suprise alot of folks...its a bear of a plane down low.