Scissors help?

[Carwash]

Can one of the trainers help me with rolling scissors?  I seem to screw it up every time I try.  If you would let me know when you are going to be in the training area, I will gladly chatch up with you.

Thanks.

[Murdr]

Training Calendar

Rolling scissors animation

[mtnman]

The way I look at rolling scissors is this-

I think of them like two of those amazing old fashioned "slinky's".  Those coiled wire toys that you make walk down stairs.

Both slinky's are made out of the same length of wire (lets call it 20 feet).  If you look at the flight path of the two airplanes as flying the coiling path of the slinky's, both will cover a flight distance of twenty feet.  You want to fly a closer tighter coil (like the slinky is stretched out only 5-6 feet), while your opponent is flying a more stretched out flightpath (slinky is stretched out more, maybe 7-10 feet).  

You will have both flown the same distance, but since your opponent flew the tighter coils, he will be out in front of you begging to be shot.  

This is the basic way I look at it.  This is a very effective move once you get it down.  The trick at first is to actually fly coils (barrel rolls), instead of simply axial rolls.

If your opponent is trying to pull enough lead for a shot while following you through this manuever it works out pretty easily.

MtnMan

[BluKitty]

your wrong mntman,  sorry ... but so are many who post in here

don't run with scissors....

the idea is to get behind your attacker.... there are only two ways of doing this if defined in a certain manner.

One.....You can slow down, use a slight manuver to avoid getting shot, and your opponent will overshoot...giving you a shot at them if you've managed your E and angles correctly.

Two.....You can manuver to make your aircraft cover more distance, to end up at the same point as if flew straight... but the point is, you end up there later with a similar E state.  
To use your slinky comparison.... the tighter the coil is, the better.  The more time it takes you to get the same point as the coil that is spread out more... the better... until you are behind them.

Good pilots use both of these basic principals to establish what they want....but these examples of course are a great simplification.... still, looked at in these terms, they are the only two things you can do in air combat to best an attacker... anything else is just you trying to avoid getting shot, or hoping for the best, by maybe trying to out turn them or somthing.

So you manuver to make your plane take up more time... while still arriveing at a similar point...slowing down can help too sometimes, but knowing when . and how much.... is just experiance... and changes plane to plane.

[B@tfinkV]

i drew this up to help convey the point (blukitty's) that while the distance travelled on both pictures is the same, the end points (Z) are in dramatically different places.

[mtnman]

No offense Blukitty- But I think you mis-read my post.  

We essentially described the same manuever in different words, and having re-read our posts I think we both stated it in ways that could be mis-interpreted.

I said-

"You will have both flown the same distance, but since your opponent flew the tighter coils, he will be out in front of you begging to be shot."  

I saying so I meant that he had flown the smaller (tighter) radius coils, causing his flightpath (slinky/coil) to be stretched more, or covering more linear distance in the same or less time (to use your time analogy, which is good).  I would have been more clear had I also pointed out that while the flight distance/time was the same for both planes, the linear distance was shorter for the plane that flew the larger radius coils.  

I also used the term "tighter" to first describe coils that are large radius, but close together and then use the term "tighter" as meaning stretched out more with a smaller radius.  Confusing? Yup.  Easy to see it in my mind, harder to put in words.  I switched between describing coil "nearness?" first, then radius, using the same terms.

You said-

"To use your slinky comparison.... the tighter the coil is, the better."

You obviously mean coil tightness here, but it could be interpreted as a tighter radius, which would give the wrong result.

Also-

"You can manuver to make your aircraft cover more distance, to end up at the same point as if flew straight... but the point is, you end up there later with a similar E state."

Could be interpreted in several ways also.  Distance = Flightpath? Or linear distance? etc...

Lesson learned?  I need to figure out how to draw diagrams and how to post images here.

BatfinkV obviously has the right idea.  (Of course!  I've learned much from his posts!)

Can somebody draw the two coils we're taking about?  I'll try, but no promises.  

MtnMan

[B@tfinkV]

Mtnman! sorry, i should have said 'to help convey the point (blukitty/mtnman's)' as yes, to me it looks like youre both on the same page.


i tried to draw an actual rolling scissor but in 2D using MS paint i had no clue how to without doing profile and plan views to look at simultaneously.

[Widewing]

Guys, you can see this demonstrated by clicking on the link provided by Murdr. It shows the "slinky" quite clearly.

My regards,

Widewing

[Murdr]

The problem with the slinky analogy is that it demonstrates only 1 of 2 methods for what we want to acomplish.  What we want to acomplish is to travel downrange on the rolling scissors axis less than our opponent.  One method is by adjusting the helix angle, which the slinky anology demonstrates.  Another is by adjusting the cylinder diameter.  Which only works with the analogy if you can picture that twisting the spring tighter (smaller circle) will make its overall length greater, and twisting the spring open (bigger circle) will make its overall length shorter.  Typically you use a combination of both methods.

helix angle, cylinder diameter, and axis are all defined in the posted animation

A rolling scissors is the result of the lead plane employing a barrel roll defense, and the trail plane choosing to counter by moving to lag pursuit at a close enough separation to prevent a reversal.  That is a mouth full, but all of that has to happen to maintain a rolling scissors.  Remove any of those components and suddenly you no longer have a rolling scissors.

This is another reason why it's hard to get a grip on.  A rolling scissors must be sustained by the actions of both pilots, making it hard to "practice".  

What I would suggest is first getting a firm grasp on the  barrel roll defense because it is prerequisite to understanding positioning in a rolling scissors.

[mtnman]

I just tried the link again.  I worked better for me this time.  The first time I tried it it didn't show much, just the very beginning diagram.  This time I waited longer, and guess what!!  It developed into a moving diagram!!

LOL, I must have given up too early last time.  I'm on 28K dial-up.  I tried to "save file as" first, and it didn't work.  So I opened it and waited a minute or two with just the opening picture.  I then said "What the..." and replied with my description.

Due to my slow connect speed, I normally do the "save file as" thing and then go do something away from the computer for awhile.

This time I tried it again but then got up to forage for food, and saw movement on the screen when I came back!!

Sorry Murdr, had I seen the moving picture thing the first time I probably wouldn't have even said anything...

Kinda funny how we use all these written descriptions to try to get a point across, and even amongst pilots who all know/use the manuever and describe the same thing we get confused.  When you look at the confusion we've shown here it's amazing we even use the written word to describe anything.  Cylinder diameter vs radius is like calling 12 eggs a dozen.  Loose coils vs tight coils is open to a lot of interpretation.  Diameter/radius vs IIIIII or /\/\/\/\/\/\.  It's even possible to have smaller diameter coils as well as coils that are closer together at the same time!  And if we threw in the diameter of the wire used to make the slinky it would get really ugly.  You'll never get 20ft of 1/2 inch rope into a coil the size of 20ft of thread.  Wingspan could be (mis?)interpreted as rope diameter maybe?

Pictures are definately best!  (And that's from somebody with an art degree, lol)

(OMW to see if the barrel roll defense you posted does the same thing!)

MtnMan

[Domin]

Rolling Scissors

[Vortex01]

Liked your film Domin and would love to have the AH film viewer version of it so I can change to external view for better perspectives and see what you instuments are reading at the varying stages of the manuvers.

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by Domin
Rolling Scissors

although  this is a movie with music score , it is very helpful in showing how one must fly using other views/head psoitions besides default forwad view........and knowing in the different views exactly where your opponent is in relation to your lift vector and your 3-9 line ( forward or aft of the 3-9 line )

most rolling scissors  initiated will not immediately slow to a riding the edge of the stall /buffet as well.......( my view/opinion of it in this film is) the reason you see the edge of the stall/buffet in this movie is because this duel took place in the Dueling arena to where after first merge both pilots had expended their E very quickly to win the first reversal.........had these 2 pilots encountered each other in a different arena, I feel they would have good speed and would not experience the edge of the stall/buffet until near the absolute end of the fight/rolling scissors maneuver........

If you go back to the link Murdr posted on rolling scissors that Badboy  made of my flight,  the speed was well above 200/250 or more for most of the maneuver  and flying the maneuver  for position and with finese helped me keep from wasting/losing more Energy than was absolutely necessary......

I personally  would not want to experience the buffet when performing a rolling scissors ,  to where as performing a flat scissors maneuver I would expect to dip into the riding the edge of the stall more often then not......


thanks for posting it again  Domin, it is very helpful for visual clues....... ~S~



Hello mtnman,
Badboy , Murdr and I along with the other Trainers are working to bring more animated and descriptive  Maneuver  pictures/animated Gifs  like the Barrel roll defense  and the Rolling scissors animated gifs.......stay tuned

[Domin]

thanks for posting it again  Domin, it is very helpful for visual clues....... ~S~

np

[Badboy]

Hi

Here is a diagram I made shortly after that animation to explain the rolling scissors. If you study the image you can see what the red pilot is doing to win.



This diagram and the animation posted earlier should clarify the main points, other than that there are some interesting subtleties in the maneuver in terms of the appropriate control inputs that can yield very small but incremental advantages.  

Questions?

Badboy