Author Topic: MK 108 Convergence  (Read 589 times)

Offline Xasthur

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MK 108 Convergence
« on: May 03, 2007, 12:29:47 PM »
I thought I would prompt a short discussion on the 'ideal' (if there is such a thing) convergence settings for the MK 108 cannon.

I hear many people say that because it's centre-mounted on the 109, convergence doesn't matter... but is this the case?

Is it correct that the convergence settings also factor in bullet-drop? (As i've been operating under the assumption that it does and therefore convergence for centre-line guns is important)

I'm prompted to ask because I have varying results with the 108.

I landed 7 kills with in one sortie lastnight, yet earlier that day I was diving behind a jug at 200 dead-straight and couldn't hit it with the damn cannon. I subsequently blacked out and augered after I had the Jug centred in the sights,  (minimal evasion) at 200 while my converengence is set to 200.

It is possible that it was poor gunnery on my part, but I landed many hits with the MGs (also set to 200) and still couldn't get any 30mm to hit. (tried aiming just high.. still nothing)


I'm curious to know your opinions, 109 pilots.
Raw Prawns
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Offline Krusty

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MK 108 Convergence
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2007, 12:41:10 PM »
Oh HELL yes is matters! hah!

The ballistics are terrible on the 30mm gun, so to get it "on target" further out (say, d650) you have to angle it up a LOT more so it can "fall down" to hit the target.

That means if you're set to d.650 and you shoot dead-on at a target that's d.300 you might lob the shell clean over him.

However, to help combat that rapid shell drop that the gun suffers from, you might actually LIKE to set it further out, and shoot closer in, depending on your taste (that way you don't have to compensate for the shell dropping so much in deflection shots).

In all honesty, you're almost never going to hit with it outside fo 250-300, and IMO you should set it to the range you get most of your kills, but with this gun in particular you need to be aware of what your convergence is set to.

For the MG151/20 guns it's not so much of an issue, but the MK108 really sucks.

Offline Lusche

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Re: MK 108 Convergence
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2007, 12:42:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Xasthur
I thought I would prompt a short discussion on the 'ideal' (if there is such a thing) convergence settings for the MK 108 cannon.

Is it correct that the convergence settings also factor in bullet-drop? (As i've been operating under the assumption that it does and therefore convergence for centre-line guns is important)



Yes it is. If you for example set your Mk 108  convergence far out to D600, you will have to aim below your enemies plane if he is just in front of you to compensate for the high-arc trajectory.
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Offline Bruv119

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MK 108 Convergence
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2007, 12:44:21 PM »
just get VERY close and pop a couple.

convergence don't come into it.
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Offline Xasthur

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MK 108 Convergence
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2007, 12:45:02 PM »
Oh good, that is what I have been basing my convergence on.

Thanks
Raw Prawns
Australia

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Offline devild0g

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« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2007, 07:46:31 PM »
That explains it... thanks

Offline Stoney74

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MK 108 Convergence
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2007, 10:09:54 PM »
During the war it couldn't be adjusted...count your blessings...

Offline Krusty

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MK 108 Convergence
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2007, 11:16:01 PM »
I'm sure it had to be adjusted, the pilot just couldn't choose to what distance!

Offline Stoney74

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« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2007, 12:31:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
I'm sure it had to be adjusted, the pilot just couldn't choose to what distance!


Let me rephrase...

You could not change the harmonization.

Offline Knegel

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MK 108 Convergence
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2007, 04:45:22 AM »
Hi,

the horizontal convergence in general was adjusted to provide a most wide range of good hitprobability.

Many people forget that the bullet start good below the gunsight. If the bullet stream got adjusted to cross the view-line at 200m, the bullets will move above the view-line and cross it again at MAYBE 500m(depending to the ballistics). So actually there are two points of horizontal convergence and i doubt the bullets move so much above the view-line to miss the target at all.

The main problem with the MK108 and other slow muzzvel guns appear while shooting with a lead and with a banked plane.

Even on the ground(no additional drag due to the plane airspeed) the MK108 bullet need more than 1 sec to reach 500m, while the target move more than 140m/sec (500km/h, i guess that was roundabout the speed u had after u got out of the blackout).
So even on 200m the target move more than 55m/sec.

If your plane is banked, your hitpoint move sideward, cause the upward adjustment now is a sideward adjustment, while the bullets still fall downward.

A convergence of 650 should be the best for the center mounted guns while shooting to strait flying targets, cause then the highest point of the bullet is at 650m, while the lowest point still is inside the targets(the distance between gunsight and cannon is rather smal in the 109).
As result you also have the smalest influence while shooting with a banked plane and you still can hit on 800yard

On the other side you will need more lead while a turnfight, to hit the target. If you adjust the convergence to 150(yard) the bullet will be above the viewline at 200yard and will fall down below it at maybe 600m.
As result you should have a good convergence on common shooting distance and you dont need as much lead while a turnfight shot, but you need to beaware of the moving hitpoint while banking the plane and that its almost impossible to hit above 600yard.

Greetings,

Knegel
« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 04:52:25 AM by Knegel »

Offline Knegel

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MK 108 Convergence
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2007, 04:46:04 AM »
Here a P38 horizontal convergence setting as example, this should be rather similar to the 109, while the MK108 would fall down more early.



Greetings,

Knegel
« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 04:51:36 AM by Knegel »

Offline Knegel

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MK 108 Convergence
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2007, 04:57:46 AM »
btw. this only count for level flight!!

while the other extremes, the vertical dive or climb, the bullets fly strait, as result the bullets will leave the view-line on long distance very much, if the convergence got set to 150yard!!

For wingmounted guns(more distance between gun and view-line/gunsight) this is even more important!!

Thats one reason why a seperate horizontal and vertical convergence setting would be nice!!

Greetings,

Knegel

Offline MiloMorai

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MK 108 Convergence
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2007, 05:19:19 AM »
How much could the MK108 be adjusted as the tube that ran to the prop would restrict much adjustment, never mind the prop was 'set in stone'?

Iirc the tube was 50mm in dia. That leaves just 10mm clearance for the MK108s shell.

Offline Knegel

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« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2007, 06:32:59 AM »
Good question, but there is not much adjustment needed to lift the bulletstream to the view-line in 150yard.

50cm hight(probably less) on roundabout 150m, 5cm on 15m , 5mm on 1,5m.

150m is rather short for a real life setting i would say.