Results of chaning from Ki-84 to Spitfire Mk XIV...

[Kweassa]

I agree with Karnak. The Spit14 is indeed, a different type of plane than other Spitfires - that much we all tend to understand. However, the feel and handle is so radically different that its almost a dismaying experience to fly it.. Many small features have been changed with the introduction of the Gryf. engine, but just what is it exactly that causes the Spit14 to wallow like the pig it is, and not the other Spitfires?

 For as long as I can remember I've been in 109s, and frankly, any 109 is easier to handle than the Spit14. There was a time when the 109s were frustratingly sensitive to roll axis destabilization during high AoA maneuvers - this has been corrected with the recent FM adjustments and slight increase in flap usage speeds. However, the Spit14 was always, and still is, extremely prone to roll axis destabilization - the phenomenon which causes snap-rolls.

 As a matter of fact, the Spit14 is easier to cause a snap-roll in than a 190.

 When a certain amount stick deflection is suddenly applied just enough to enter the opening stages of accelerated stalls, most planes start buffeting, and then after the stall has progressed enough to deterr controlled flight one wing droops down. The 109s, handle extremely well in these situations. Maybe its because of the leading edge slats, but they are extremely resistant to sudden stall behaviors that has no warning. It wasn't always like this, but the recent FM change has given the 109s that much stability. In the case of the 190s, they have that 'snap-roll' behavior. Without much buffeting, as soon as the AoA crosses the stall boundary it suddenly stalls, drooping one wing.

 Interestingly, the Spit14 behaves the same as the 190s. What's more interesting, is all the other Spitfires have a much more benign behavior that shows considerable amount of threshold from the first signs of buffeting until one wing starts drooping. You can drag the plane into a wild bull ride rodeo of a 360 turn and the plane will still hang on through it. All the other Spitfires do this - except the Spit14.

 
 So why is this happening? Is the Gryffin engine that much hostile to the flight characteristic of the plane? Does the elongated nose/tail change so much of the airflow as to make it behave it like a 190 than a Spitfire?

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Husky01
The real truth is its the pilot not the plane. Put any good stick in a jug mossie or any other kind of larger fighter plane they will still kill a newb la7 or spit16 in a turn fight.

Nah, he was a vet player.  Just underestimated the new Mossie's manueverability.  He woulda had my bacon had he been more cautious of the Mossie.

I was just razzing you.  P-47 is a better fighter than the Mossie in all honesty.

[Squire]

The most fun you can have in a Mossie is another fighter trying to straight turnfight you. Usually by the time they realize how deep in poop they are, their speed is gone.

Im going to enjoy the updated version, whenever it gets here.

[tedrbr]

One thing to remember about flying the Ki-84 is how easy it is to pick up a pilot wound in the Frank.  It's Achilles heel.

More often than not, that is how I lose a fight in a Frank, or am forced to ditch from a fight.  I catch a burst, hear a ping and blood all over the canopy.

[leitwolf]

As far as perking Spitfires is concerned, the 16 should be perked, not the 14. It offers far more potential to unbalance typical MA fights.

[Kweassa]

As far as perking Spitfires is concerned, the 16 should be perked, not the 14. It offers far more potential to unbalance typical MA fights.

 I agree.. what can the Spit14 do that the spit16 cannot do?

 (except maybe, fly at 450mph at 25k..)

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Kweassa
I agree with Karnak. The Spit14 is indeed, a different type of plane than other Spitfires - that much we all tend to understand. However, the feel and handle is so radically different that its almost a dismaying experience to fly it.. Many small features have been changed with the introduction of the Gryf. engine, but just what is it exactly that causes the Spit14 to wallow like the pig it is, and not the other Spitfires?

 For as long as I can remember I've been in 109s, and frankly, any 109 is easier to handle than the Spit14. There was a time when the 109s were frustratingly sensitive to roll axis destabilization during high AoA maneuvers - this has been corrected with the recent FM adjustments and slight increase in flap usage speeds. However, the Spit14 was always, and still is, extremely prone to roll axis destabilization - the phenomenon which causes snap-rolls.

 As a matter of fact, the Spit14 is easier to cause a snap-roll in than a 190.

 When a certain amount stick deflection is suddenly applied just enough to enter the opening stages of accelerated stalls, most planes start buffeting, and then after the stall has progressed enough to deterr controlled flight one wing droops down. The 109s, handle extremely well in these situations. Maybe its because of the leading edge slats, but they are extremely resistant to sudden stall behaviors that has no warning. It wasn't always like this, but the recent FM change has given the 109s that much stability. In the case of the 190s, they have that 'snap-roll' behavior. Without much buffeting, as soon as the AoA crosses the stall boundary it suddenly stalls, drooping one wing.

 Interestingly, the Spit14 behaves the same as the 190s. What's more interesting, is all the other Spitfires have a much more benign behavior that shows considerable amount of threshold from the first signs of buffeting until one wing starts drooping. You can drag the plane into a wild bull ride rodeo of a 360 turn and the plane will still hang on through it. All the other Spitfires do this - except the Spit14.

 
 So why is this happening? Is the Gryffin engine that much hostile to the flight characteristic of the plane? Does the elongated nose/tail change so much of the airflow as to make it behave it like a 190 than a Spitfire?

I disagree with the bulk of this. I do not have any issues with roll destabilization unless I drop the flaps, and I generally will not use flaps with the Spit XIV. Don't need them. The drag and stability penalty easily out-weighs any minor gain in turn radius. Besides, you should never be so slow in the XIV that that flaps could even be lowered.

Yes, there is a great deal more torque than the other Spitfires. However, that torque can be utilized to one's advantage. Don't fight city hall.

It's a completely different animal than the other Spitfires and requires a different discipline. If you try to fly it like a Merlin Spit, you'll regret it almost immediately.

My regards,

Widewing

[Kev367th]

Isn't there a suspicion that much like the Mossie the XIV's C of G is off?

Add that to it's porked climb rate = a bit of a pig.

Was hoping both would have been fixed during the remodel with an FM tweak, but alas this seems not have happened.

While it is a great high alt performer down low its only average.
You can only get close to catching a running La7 if you have WEP, otherwise forget it.
With the bigger planeset now I really think it is time to try the XIV out unperked in the MA's, and see what happens.

Out of all the perked planes the XIV is the only one which consistently fails to get a greater than 2.0 K/D ratio, in fact it usually barely surpasses around 1.2 K/D ratio.

Would an unperked XIV cause choas?
Probably not.
Your average newb will still go for the XVI because XVI is higher than XIV and therefore must be a later faster Spit.

[Kweassa]

It's a completely different animal than the other Spitfires and requires a different discipline. If you try to fly it like a Merlin Spit, you'll regret it almost immediately.

 
 That's the real problem, isn't it? Why should anyone regret it in the first place when they try to fly it like a 'Merlin Spit'? Why is it depicted as a 'completely different animal' in the first place?

 Like Karnak, I don't turn&burn in the Spit14, nor do I fly it like a "Merlin Spit" - because, I already know what happens when you try it. The problem is why should the handling be so radically different so as to fly it more like a 109 or a 190 than a Spitfire - after all, it is a "Spitfire".

 Frankly, your insight on this matter doesn't help all that much except to prove a certain point on how to fly the Spit14 as it is. We're not asking you about how to be successful in the current incarnation of the AH2 Spit14.

 I believe the question Karnak and I have is why is it that way, in the first place. Is there any documented evidence that the Spit14 is a "completely different animal" in handling, than the other Spitfires?

 I think not.

[FX1]

Calling me a newb?

Those fighting words

[Gianlupo]

Originally posted by Karnak
The Mk VIII doesn't fight me either, it just doesn't respond as smoothly as the Ki-84, or so it feels to me.

The Mk. VIII is very similar to Ki84, in my perception, but it sure is less "maneuverable" in that, it has a slower roll rate and, IMO, this means a lot in combat. Also, I'm not sure it does climbing spirals as well as the Ki. Again, just pilot's perceptions, no data, here. Anyway, the VIII is a good alternative to Ki84, that is my main ride. As Vad and tedbr say, I think it's one of (if not the) best furballer of the game.

Btw, WW, wanna do that Spit VIII vs Ki84? I'm curious to see what comes out .

Originally posted by tedrbr
One thing to remember about flying the Ki-84 is how easy it is to pick up a pilot wound in the Frank.  It's Achilles heel.

More often than not, that is how I lose a fight in a Frank, or am forced to ditch from a fight.  I catch a burst, hear a ping and blood all over the canopy.

That's the thing I really hate.... I got used to it, but I hate how many wounds that fragging pilot gets!!!!

That and the ludicrously low speed the flaps pop out! (EDIT: pop out at? <--- need some english language enlightment!!)

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Kweassa
That's the real problem, isn't it? Why should anyone regret it in the first place when they try to fly it like a 'Merlin Spit'? Why is it depicted as a 'completely different animal' in the first place?

 Like Karnak, I don't turn&burn in the Spit14, nor do I fly it like a "Merlin Spit" - because, I already know what happens when you try it. The problem is why should the handling be so radically different so as to fly it more like a 109 or a 190 than a Spitfire - after all, it is a "Spitfire".

 Frankly, your insight on this matter doesn't help all that much except to prove a certain point on how to fly the Spit14 as it is. We're not asking you about how to be successful in the current incarnation of the AH2 Spit14.

 I believe the question Karnak and I have is why is it that way, in the first place. Is there any documented evidence that the Spit14 is a "completely different animal" in handling, than the other Spitfires?

 I think not.

XIV only became substantially different from other mark handling at very very slow speeds due to its greater wieght.

All other characteristics remained more or less the same.

Trials against a IX (unknown if F IX or LF IX, I suspect LF IX) showed -
Roll rate should be very much the same.
Turning circle 'should' be more or less identical, with a slight adv to the XIV turning to port.
XIV better dive and climb.

Was found to be more manoeverable than an VIII in turns at ALL altitudes.
Had to be forced into a spin, would not do it voluntary.

It did have slightly heavier controls and required a lot of trimming, but we have auto trim anyway, maybe it's not working correctly?

Doesn't sound much like our XIV does it.

RE: Our VIII's roll rate - anyone else think it's based on an extended tipped VIII and not a regular tipped VIII?

[Kweassa]

Doesn't sound much like our XIV does it.

 Frankly, Kev, that doesn't sound like our Spit14 at all.

[rogerdee]

The spit 14 is  a different beast,it is a monster the griffin engine gives it totaly different handeling.

in one of the books i got Ginger lacy took up a new spit14 for some aerobatics and nearly slamed it into he ground doing a loop,when he got out he orders his guys  to NEVER do  a loop especialy low down as it handeling was totaly different  to what they were used too.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by rogerdee
in one of the books i got Ginger lacy took up a new spit14 for some aerobatics and nearly slamed it into he ground doing a loop,when he got out he orders his guys  to NEVER do  a loop especialy low down as it handeling was totaly different  to what they were used too.

He didn't order them not to do a loop.  He ordered them not to do a loop (split S?) with less than x altitude.  I'd have to pull my books down to find the quote, but I don't have time right now.