Author Topic: Science requires overcoming childhood understanding  (Read 2023 times)

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
Science requires overcoming childhood understanding
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2007, 03:33:37 PM »
Seagoon, what are you talking about?
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Seagoon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2396
      • http://www.providencepca.com
Science requires overcoming childhood understanding
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2007, 04:06:55 PM »
Chair,

You really don't understand what I was saying? My persistent cold, caused no doubt by demons and the evil eye (I'm not going to get better until we burn a witch or two, I'm sure of it!) must be making me even more incoherently fanatic and rabid than usual... Let me wipe the froth from the screen and I'll try to explain.

 Timmer attacks religious belief in general, and Christianity in particular as an impediment to knowledge and the understanding of scientific principles. For instance:

Quote
The authors go into extensive details about two cases: rampant teleology and mind-body dualism. Children tend to believe that every object has a specific purpose or function, which fits in nicely with the teleological view of life espoused by many forms of creationism, such as intelligent design. They also view the mind and brain as operating on different levels and performing distinct functions.


And yet for centuries, Christian teleology and the belief of the survival of the soul gave men a reason to pursue science and an assurance that there were answers to be found and that they were actually part of the grand design of things.

Now we have this bizzarre respinning of world history, that makes the same Christian worldview that gave birth to most of the scientific advances of the modern age from about 1500 on, an impediment to science and which makes atheistic materialism the only hope for mankind to be able to actually figure out anything.

The funny thing is, if I wrote the same kind of thing from the opposing view, and submitted it to a scientific magazine, you'd immediately tag it as "religious" and "unfounded opinion" and dismiss it. However, the fact is that  Timmer's article is an example of dogma. He is simply stating the beliefs of secular humanism, which in addition to being  the ruling atheology of the scientific academy, is rapidly becoming the established religion of the Western nations.

The scary thing is, this is a faith that is saying things like "parents should not be able to teach their children any dogmas but ours" and "certain jobs should not be available to people who disagree with us". Evangelicals like myself are watching as we are gradually being consigned to the intellectual and social ghetto, and looking at previous experience with what happens when states become expressly materialistic, we can only wonder how long before someone starts thinking about camps and compulsory reeducation or perhaps a more "final" solution to our "God delusion."
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Dadano

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 714
Science requires overcoming childhood understanding
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2007, 04:30:27 PM »
Quote
"God delusion."

You read it yet? Good stuff.
Dano
Army of Muppets

"Furballing is a disease, and we are the cure... Oink."
-Twitchy

Offline Seagoon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2396
      • http://www.providencepca.com
Science requires overcoming childhood understanding
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2007, 04:59:35 PM »
Hi Dadano,

Quote
Originally posted by Dadano
You read it yet? Good stuff.


No, to tell the truth I haven't had the time, and I'm a little burned out on having to read books where its 1938 again and I'm the religion that is threatening the progress of humanity that needs to be isolated and dealt with. I had my fill for a little while with Sam Harris and his improbably titled Letter to a Christian Nation.

For the last 20 years I've been reading Dawkins (Selfish Gene, Blind Watchmaker), Pinker, Gould, Dennett, Eldredge, Harris, Russell, Scott, and a host of other popularizers of scientific materialism, I've even written a few critiques and reviews of their works, but in the end they all sound like me prior to about 1993 (albeit quite a bit more intelligent) and I'm tired of listening to me when I was still shaking my fist at God. These days I read them in order to be able to respond, but I have to admit that I don't do it as a labor of Love and as the amount of time I have to read shrinks I'm finding that I want to spend the time I have reading that which is edifying and profitable (or at least entertaining) to me. Too often I find I finish a book and just want the time it took to read back.

Just out of curiousity have you done any reading on the other side? Say Phillip Johnson, Michael Behe, Francis Beckwith, or James Sire?

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline majic

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1538
Science requires overcoming childhood understanding
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2007, 10:07:08 PM »
I've always wondered why some people (maybe alot of people) believe science and religion have to be mutually exclusive.

Offline Holden McGroin

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8591
Science requires overcoming childhood understanding
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2007, 10:18:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by L'EMMERDEUR
Your opinion is a good example of what they are talking about.  Solid science is trumped by subjective impressions about the sun and an invisible atmospheric gas.


Last time I saw some CO2 it was invisible.
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
storm in a fishbowl
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2007, 12:20:04 AM »
What Majic said.
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline Gunthr

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3043
      • http://www.dot.squat
Science requires overcoming childhood understanding
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2007, 07:44:44 AM »
Quote
I'm tired of listening to me when I was still shaking my fist at God. - Chair


that is revealing...  an angry  butterfly in a bag, waiting to be released...  and our Lord will be right there to forgive you and let you settle in His hand when you are finally released from your private hell...  :)
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
Science requires overcoming childhood understanding
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2007, 08:00:51 AM »
and yet... catholic schools turn out better students than secular public schools... better in everything including science.

maybe it is because they look at science as a tool and not a religion.

lazs

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
Science requires overcoming childhood understanding
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2007, 08:07:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunthr
that is revealing...  an angry  butterfly in a bag, waiting to be released...  and our Lord will be right there to forgive you and let you settle in His hand when you are finally released from your private hell...  :)
Gunthr, why'd you attribute that to me?  That was Seagoon.  I imagine this must be somewhat awkward...
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Gunthr

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3043
      • http://www.dot.squat
Science requires overcoming childhood understanding
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2007, 08:25:17 AM »
not really Chair, other than posting without my reading glasses.  you may be angry, i don't know.  the rest of my post may well apply to you ...  :)
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
Science requires overcoming childhood understanding
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2007, 08:28:42 AM »
Nope, not angry, just thought it was an interesting article.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
Science requires overcoming childhood understanding
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2007, 08:41:31 AM »
chair is fair and balanced like NPR is fair and balanced...

The devil is in what they think are "interesting"   Take NPR..  they can spend an hour on some book about a politician who is corrupt.  guess which party the corrupt guy belonged to?

chair finds articles that try to debunk religion or show it and the people in it "interesting" and worth linking.

When you see what get's their attention and what they think needs to be spotlighted...  it really doesn't matter how fair you are if you stack the deck.

It is like... if you are talking about race relations and you spend that time talking about the KKK or Wallace or something or... books on the sacrafices of the freedom riders say..  That is NPR.

Chair does it with religion.  never a link to the charitable or the good.

I don't really like the tactic when used by him or NPR.

lazs

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
Science requires overcoming childhood understanding
« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2007, 08:46:27 AM »
Lazs, the article addresses the roots of astrology, mysticism, and pseudosciences like that.  Are you saying those are the on the same level as deep, religious convictions?  Maybe I need to re-read the article, I didn't see it as an attack on religion.  I thought it was an interesting analysis of how the psychic quackery and sorcery and whatnot end up being so pervasive, even when folks are grown up.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Gunthr

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3043
      • http://www.dot.squat
Science requires overcoming childhood understanding
« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2007, 08:51:29 AM »
Chair, i can only assume that you have "issues" about faith in God - otherwise why would you regularly post what i would otherwise consider to be a troll - about the same thing over and over?  you seem fixated on the topic.  Maybe like Lazs implies you have an agenda, or maybe as i just theorized, you are crying out for help.  either way, you sure do beat it to death...

i sure don't want to tell you what you can post or not,  particularly if you like discussing issues around religeon and government, and belief in God. etc. but you do keep highlighting anti-religious articles or news that is often contemptuous but always a negative slant on religeon.  im not even all that religious but i find it tiresome and the way you present these as "interesting" intellectually dishonest.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2007, 09:15:58 AM by Gunthr »
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century